Unique 328 Valuation Help Request

Hello, as a recent first time Ferrari owner (360 Modena) I have now fully caught the bug and am already looking to add another. I also grew up loving the 308/328 cars and there just happens to be one local-ish to be (2-3 hours away) that I was made aware of by friends of friends (not actively being marketed).

Based off what I am seeing out there in the market for these cars it seems a reasonable deal but there are some caveats that I would love to get this groups thoughts on:

-The carfax shows a theft very early on in its life
-The current state issued a clean title saying they showed nothing about a theft in their search (so this will always hang around the car regardless)
-It likely has been repainted as readings are consistent but in the 18mils range
-Current owner has zero records. Says its was serviced "5-7 years ago.....I think"
-He has owned it for ~15 years and says he didnt think to keep records and doesnt understand why thats important (shrug)

Overall I am told by folks I know that have seen car and driven it that its a really clean car, drives well (outside of a tough shift into 2nd when cold.....fine when warm) etc.

Its rosso corsa over black, ~40k miles and I believe I can get it for $66k.

I would love any thoughts.

 

308 or 328, GTB or GTS, US or Euro ???

 

Shoot, sorry:

-'86
-328 GTS
-US car

 

A repaint, a theft on the carfax, no records, the owner doesn't even know when his own car was last
serviced and doesn't know why records are important. My advice is, don't even think of making an offer until it's had a PPI done by a competent shop that is very familiar with the 328. If it has no issues, it might be worth 60k IMO, without having seen it. DO NOT be swayed by shiny paint and clean carpets. I've seen plenty of turds that look like show cars. Just remember, there's no such thing as a cheap Ferrari. And one more thing - unless you realistically are going to keep this car until you die, you will almost always be better off paying up for a better car to begin with, because really nice cars that are clean, regularly serviced and have an unblemished history will appreciate in value, whereas a cheap, below-average car will likely not appreciate at all.

 

Thank you for the thoughts, much appreciated.

 

The highlighted part is not really true - When the market values rises, the below average car prices do rise, just not as much as above average cars.

By the same token, when the market values fall, the below average car prices fall less than the above average cars.

In 45 years of following the Ferrari market, I have never known a time when average/above average condition cars prices rose, whilst below average condition cars didn't rise at all.

What happens is, the top tier cars start to rise, and people try to buy the best cars first of all.

When the top tier cars are no longer available, buyers start looking at the next level down - The average condition cars.

When the average condition cars are no longer available, buyers start looking at the below average condition cars,

If the market is strong enough, for long enough, it becomes worthwhile for buyers to buy below average condition cars, spend money on sorting them out, and then sell them on.

When the markets rise, even the cheapest cars go up in market value - Not just Ferrari's but all cars, that's just how the car market works.

 

The 1986 is a fine year, the car was becoming quite well developed by then.

I think you should test drive the car, and see if you like how it fits, and drives. If it passes that test, then get the inspection. It could just need some typical maintenance. But at the age of these cars, even those "well maintained" often need an element of restoration that goes beyond typical services. The best cars now are probably in the hands of do it yourself hobby owners, who get help for major or more difficult aspects. The lack of service history does not mean it was not serviced, and much service history can often be fairly trivial or routine things that have little to do with condition right now.

If you have some funds to address surprises, I wouldn't overthink it.

The original theft is a binary issue I can't calibrate around.

 

https://classics.autotrader.com/classic-cars/1986/ferrari/328/102186827

Here is a comparable for you, seems similar in deferred maintenance needs being expected, mileage a bit higher (not really a major factor in cars this old).

 

Not comparable at all. That car is a toilet.. Prior discussions agreed it is a parts car.

 

The best PPI in the world only looks at about 20% of the car. Evaluating a car is all about indicators. "if this is good,that should be good too" The biggest strongest indicator is owners attitude toward car. With such a casual attitude its very difficult to believe things were done in a timely fashion and by high quality service providers. Cars owner is a very serious strike against it. There are thousands of 328, lots of them are great cars. If you are taking a chance on one it should be priced accordingly.

 

I wouldn't buy a classic car of any marque - much less a classic Ferrari - without extensive records. PPIs aren't worth much; most shops don't really do more than a cursory inspection, and even the most asidious ones can only tell so much about a car from looking at it. There's no way to know what's going on inside the engine, trans, etc. without records, and in Ferrariworld, problems with either can approach the value of a "cheep" car.

 

I'll be the contrarian -- for me, it's the current condition that sets the value on a classic car. I don't care about a belt change from 1993. The title stain would be a big area of concern for me, and a bargaining point.

No records = no service, so figure 10K to clean it up. Use that as a bargaining point as well.

A clean 86 with 40K miles is roughly worth 75-90 (and those will STILL cost you $$$ after you buy). 60K is 10% off, push for mid-high 50s (cash is a big incentive) and start the records over.

Make sure you get the tools, jack and manual packet that comes with the car, if available. Those things are stupid expensive

 

Tough shift into 2nd when cold is very common on these cars.

 

I see this written a lot, but not sure I buy into this. Perhaps was true on older Ferrari's. But during my search for a 308, sampling versions from '77 to '83, I never encountered one that was difficult at all to get into second when cold, and my current car certainly is not afflicted with this, though admittedly I've not started out below about 40F. Perhaps down to lubricant used more than a fundamental gearbox characteristic? Somewhere I read (probably on the internet-yeah, I know) that the early GT4 (or was it 246?) gearboxes had this issue, but it was corrected by a drilling in the 1-2 shift shaft bore to preclude trapped oil in that bore.

 

IMO, the point of keeping records is to PROVE the car has been serviced, eliminating guesswork and reliance on the seller's assertions. And the seller can't vouch for anything the previous owners might or might not have done either, unless the records go back to before they acquired the car. Records show you WHEN it was serviced and WHAT was done. Seeing proof of the car's service history gives you a level of confidence about how it's been taken care of. They aren't proof it's a good car, but should lessen the risk because they are evidence that the owner(s) valued servicing and understood the importance of documenting its history.

 

RE: The 2nd Gear phenomenon: there’s an FC thread/post that covers it pretty well.
Paraphrasing: it’s a combination of the gearbox’s design and high-viscosity lubricant situations (cold drive-off in cold weather) where lube gets trapped in a bore and the clearance between the bore and part of the gearbox that controls 2nd gear engagement - and needs to slide into this bore - cannot do so because the lube’s viscosity creates a hydraulic lock. Once the lube is warm - whether by ambient temps or mechanical heating - the lube can be easily expelled from the bore and the issue resolves itself. I have two 308s - a carb Euro and US QV - and both exhibit this behavior.
The hole being drilled was an owner work-around that alleviated the hydraulic lock by providing the lube an alternate escape path from the offending bore; a backdoor if you will.

Getting back to OP’s post and the resulting Nature vs Nurture argument (trust the receipts vs trust a PPI) surrounding this particular car; in the absence of service records a potential new owner has no choice but to rely on an inspection and assessment of the car’s current condition.
Even with service records though, it’s just as easy for a former owner (or his shop) to miss - or not be aware of - needed service as it is for the shop conducting a PPI. Put another way: neither receipts nor a PPI are a guarantee, but a PPI certainly doesn’t hurt anything.
Everything on a 40+ year-old car needs to be replaced eventually anyway. I’d rather have the work done by the shop and techs I know and trust than rely on a piece of paper from God only knows where with God only knows what qualifications.
A perfect example of this was posted recently where a “super car” dealer demonstrated how to replace a 308’s oil pan gasket. It took two days because the shop was not familiar with the procedure and mangled the lower dipstick tube when trying to remove the pan with the tube still in-situ. Think that’ll show-up on an RO? Think they take the same approach with all their repair jobs? This is why I’m not down with just automatically trusting the condition of a car solely to a stack of receipts.
- Dave

 

Oh yes, agreed, records are ideal to have and the further back the better. And good records go some way to reduce the purchase risk, or at the least be able to make a more refined estimate of deferred maintenance requirements.

But some people just drive, have busy lives and don't do administration very well and have few if any records. I would not reject a car outright which lacks records. In some respects it causes one to do a more thorough type of due diligence.

 

The lack of service records is odd, in the Ferrari world, so then one should assume that no mtns. has been done. So that could be a $20 - 30K deduct in value.
Belts, valves and hoses, at a minimum =$10K. then brakes, and fluids, as well as a clutch & suspension an other $10K, and then misc issues - mostly electrical with 328's.... in terms of pricing that is where I would start. The good news is a 328 is a robust reliable car when cared for. Its not new, and will have the usual poor ac. slow windows, etc... but is arguably one of the best looking Ferrari's of all time. its definitely one of those cars that the more you use the better they are.

 

To the OP: If you want a vehicle with a known history and a long-term semi-obsessive owner, this one is local and known to me: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/1987-ferrari-328-gts-69k-miles-79-900.697218/

It's higher priced than what you're looking at, but by the time you add known unknown repair costs to that 66K you'll be near the same total.

 

lol, I don't think he looked at the pics (especially the interior or engine)

 

Difficult shifting into 2nd gear when cold is 100% a known quirk with the 3x8's. Now...its 100% dependent on air temp not "cold engine". If I start my car below 40-degrees, or if its sat for a while in the cold garage you will not get it into 2nd gear until it warms up. If I start my car during the summer, then I can get into second gear without the car "warming up".

 

If money is no object, I have a 25k mile relatively rare black/black 1989 328 GTS with perfect ownership provenance. Very soon to go on BaT. All records since new including original sales invoices, window sticker and all maintenance records. Serviced since new by the same two master Ferrari mechanics. Never had a single mechanical issue, only electrical issue was replacement of a sticky hazard switch. Never driven more than 75 miles from the Ferrari dealership. Always garaged. Original paint, perfect leather. Less than 100 miles on recent major service. Needs absolutely nothing except new tires if one's picky. As an example of what's out there if you look hard enough, this is the other side of the coin from the car in the link you posted.

 

One owner car ? With all history, that is interesting for the record.
Which Nero ? To my knowledge there are more or less 8-9 % of the total production ( both Nero )

 

I've owned the car since 2005. The original owner was my next door neighbor, so it's really the same as a one owner car. And it's plain Nero black, glossy but not metallic. I've been told that there are only 7 or 9 US market 1989s in that color combo.