SF90 Stradale Resale

I think we are aging ourselves. We sound like 2 guys talking about how movies were $5 back in the day, but I completely agree. The pricing is very out of whack. I remember when supercars were 250k and that threshold was ridiculous. It’s crazy when a base 911 costs more now than a turbo did years ago. As long as they keep selling cars, I guess they will keep raising prices, but something has to give?

 

Great points by all, I think the one thing not being discussed is the growth of UHNWI in the world. In the past 10 years it’s up about 44% and in 2028 expected to be up nearly 100% from 2014. I think many of us here, myself included, are a bit guilty of using a mindset that stems from the time period of 2010-2017. Thats over.

I would really like to know the growth in size of the market for potential buyers of Ferraris, but I have a feeling it mirrors or exceeds UHNWI. Perhaps by more than most here would care to imagine.

I think whats happened is the distortions brought about by Covid are unwinding, and gee, it was fun on the way up….. turns out the way down isn’t nearly as fun!

(Part of those distortions was allowing people to spec a car for their first time and I think many were a bit binary: either they were very low spec, to be careful with the price, or they were very high spec, because it was their first one and really wanted the full experience…. Its clear to me, if you want to hold any value in these cars going forward, you will need a spec that is a bit of a balance of these two things)

 

Agree 100% - spec has always been.
Rolex makes 1.3M watches a year and brands are now retail 200 - 500k per watch and selling above.
Paint 20k 30k 46k special paints and people are ordering, now more than ever.
TM just doubled to handle customers - so is it really Ferrari with the perceived value issue or non customers. This same conversation has been going on since Enzo started selling car - he didn't care.
How many guys are kicking themselves - you only live once and there are no guarantees, the cars value matters on two days - why give it so much effort and bad energy, I have shared my perspective in what is the most waste of time thread - period.

 

Does that mean Ferrari was not greedy as a subsidiary of Fiat?

I learn something new everyday here.

I guess that's why I keep coming back.

 

Inflation adjusted base prices actually aren't that different, I saw some calculation done that in today's money, F12 base was $440k, 812SF was $430k, 12Ci is 459k - not totally dissimilar. It's the option prices that have really gone up a lot - paint code reclassifications on their own added 10-20k to a lot of orders.

My gut feeling is that SF90 coupes got overproduced, and that + dynamics around Spider/XX orders coming in has resulted in a disproportionately high number of cars on the market. But 296 market feels in line - that's been a pretty high volume segment for Ferrari historically (they made a ton of 360/F430/458/etc) so you should always have expected to see a good number of them for sale after 3 years.

 

My feeling is that Ferrari did a good job to increase the number of new cars buyers (by clever marketing and addressing new targets) but didn't do anything to increase the number of second hand buyers (their marketing might even had decreased that number, by "devaluating" the second hand buyer's experience).
This created a disconnect between the offer and demand for the second hand market, resulting in more difficult sales - this seems to apply to both SF90 and 296 (not so much to the F8, maybe because the F8 being identified from the start as a stop gap solution, its customer base was not as much inflated).

 

Why do you guys think Ferrari refuses to offer the SF90 in manual? With the market indicating that customers are able and willing to pay half a million and up for things like the porsche st, and 800k+ for an old murcielago, isn't this a clear indication there is a business case to do so? I feel like Ferrari would have the ability to print money. Make a limited production run of like 400 units, give it a special name, make it manual only, offer unique interior specs just for this model, charge 500k more, done. People would buy the hell out of it.

 

Adapting a manual gearbox to a hybrid drivetrain is probably problematic.
There would also be a contradiction between the search for performance and the selection of a less efficient solution; I'm not sure of the reality of the customer demand if the actual proposition would be made.

 

hybrid car can have manual gearbox? I doubt it

 

I think the 3 issues are

1- performance- you just wont have the same performance, some say they would give it up, but others say they wouldn’t. Also loss of functionality with no more auto mode.

2- safety- the ability to decouple the driven wheels from the powertrain at any moment is something that the safety systems couldn’t really help out with - no sane driver would do that, but there is always someone. And then the stories would be about how they put all that power in a car that the slightest wrong shift caused an incident…

3- costs: a- costs to develop/ b-costs to maintain/warranty, for likely (based on sales) a small group.

Imagination: what if someone developed a manually controlled DCT, that had a shifter and clutch pedal and also had paddles. The systems would be all by wire, but would give the driver manual control if so desired. Yet would not allow something truly dangerous….

 

Basically the way I understand it, that would just be adding an unnecessary clutch pedal to the existing system - when not operated in auto mode, the driver has full control on the DCT gear changes with the paddles, as long as he does not intend a shift that's judged inappropriate.
Adding to that the fact that a sequential gearbox is very adapted to the removal of "manual" clutch operation (many race cars only use the clutch pedal when starting, and many motorbikes now implement shifters), that would seem completely artificial to me.

 

I think the case for this is an SP model with V12. Would allow them to maximize the $$ return while managing the risk, complexities and product positioning issues that Caeruleus11 notes in his post...

well said

 

Because most MT on the market today cannot handle the amount of torque that modern hybrids put out, at least not reliably for the duration of an OEM's warranty period.

The Magnum from Tremec can handle up to 700 lb/ft torque (about 100 more than the SF90), but then you'd have the complexity of adapting that to a hybrid drivetrain.

 

Ferrari is a tech company first / engine builder second.
The V12 team went home a year ago after the 812 comp - it's done. Guessing there is something extra for the 12Ci - the real story F80 V6 and idea of something faster in a few years is insanity - many will go back and grab older models and those will be in high demand.
XX and 296VS - two monsters beyond a manual and a death wish to try.

 

I think Ferrari wants to be a tech company that builds engines.

 

so far from reality, Ferrari's tech is so far behind there is no chance they can compete as a tech company. Their tech is garbage and their engine the is lagging. Makes no difference though, the loyalists keep ordering.

 

I guess that infotainment lags. No worries. The engine though? Sorry, can't agree.

 

Explain the 499P -
Or SF90 years later faster than the new Lambo -
Loyalty - why does this shock you with the #1 branding company in the world.
You gotta enjoy life man - us who won Ferrari's aren't the problem.

 

Ferrari has been moving into a luxury brand - so what matters is image and exclusivity.
They still have some engineers, so by pure chance they may release a good car, but the management as well as the target customers don't give a s*** about that.

 

That’s a sign.

 

$430,000? Horrible rims too.

 

I always came back to Enzo Ferrari’s statement that he sold you an engine and threw in the car for free. But these days you could say its not just an engine but also the electric motors, so its about the “power unit”. But at its focus, these setups are still about the engine. The engine tech they have developed is astounding. As is the tech for the rest of the power unit. Then you have the technology in the suspension, and the stability systems, there is a lot of “special sauce” that Ferrari brings. And I think Ferrari should always keep the focus with the engine. Yes they are more luxury focused, but they need to remain authentic. The engine should be the focus, that is the value add for the brand. Otherwise it could be another car. And they should never forget it. The engine is a kind of technology. Yes the UI leaves a lot of room for improvement.

 

If we could have a car with an engine from Ferrari, a chassis built by Mclaren, and an interior designed by Audi, I would be very happy.