599 timing chain life

Hi,

I have a 599 that I use regularly on the Nurburgring. Approximately 100 - 120 laps and a total of 15k miles driven this year. Total mileage on the car is 66k miles. It's has had the primary cats removed and a remap with rev limiter raised to 8600. Plus suspension mods.

The car runs fine, but is tappety on start up that goes away once warm and / or with new oil. Once the oil becomes more used the tapping becomes more noticeable. Oil is changed on combination of use, milage and time so 5 engine oil changes and two gearbox oil changes this year. Booster oil not used and I believe this was done for the tapping?
Oil is motul
https://www.motul.com/en-US/products/13504?product=MOTUL+300V+LE+MANS+10W-60

My specialist has recommended replacing the timing chain. His concern is that they will have stretched due to usage and the adjuster not have any more adjustment left.

I spoke with my main dealer, GreyPaul and they said the chain is a 'life of the engine' part. They also said no way to check for chain stretch and engine out job to change.

Advice and recommendation much appreciated
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Bravo for using the 599 as intended. I would trust Graypaul and likely use the Tutela oil supplement.

 

120 laps a year on Nurburgring and maximum redline of 8600 RPM, I would re-classify your car as a race car. Whether you believe that a street going Ferrari is intended for the race track, it's not. Even their Challenge cars are race-pretenders. So, if you buy into the premise that your car is a race car, then it is woefully under maintained.

Yes, it is time to do the chains, ramps, tensioners, and refresh that race engine of a car.

 

Understood clearly

 

That's pretty hard driving ...

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Yeah, she's definitely not a race car. Trail braking a must, with so much weight transfer to deal with she's a challenge.

 

Would also suggest a thourgh "nut and bolt" of that chassis after each and every run. Although most suspension nuts are nylock, they can still vibrate loose over time.

 

She goes up on a ramp pretty much after every trackday. There's always something that needs doing.

Suspension bushes all replaced annually.

 

From what I understand, the 599 timing chains are life of the engine thing. I'd use the additive. My 599 gets tappety as well, when its hot in the summer. not bad but just a tick tick ... Thomas at FOA checked it over for me a while ago, and said = totally normal, its just how the engine was designed.

as for track use... wow, lots of consummables on the 599... hate to think of what the brakes are doing. Love the twisty wheels! great look.

 

For serious racing, the whole engine is consumables. Guess how many engines a race team goes through for one Indy 500 race? He did 120 13-mile laps a year, that is 3x Indy 500 on one engine.

 

I don't 100% agree, based on their (indy 500 or any top tier race series) state of engine tune and how long they run at max revs / full throttle and design life of the engine compared to a road car engine. Even one based on the Enzo engine but with steel Conrods, lower rev limit, less power etc
https://f1chronicle.com/how-long-do-f1-engines-last/

F1 cars spend 70-80% of their time at full throttle, and of that how much time is actually spent at peak revs?
https://scuderiafans.com/2022-fastest-quali-laps-per-tracks-from-current-calendar-share-of-lap-time-full-throttle/

At Donington bikes spend only 20% of their time at full throttle as so much of the circuit is leant over.

A non aero car like the 599 at Nurburgring will be limited to opportunities to run full throttle and max revs. This is further reduced by diver skill and level of risk acceptance.

When you contact Ferrari for recommendation based on usage they simply refer you to the dealer. Dealer is similarly helpful.

 

Standard Ferrari CCM lasted one year. Going to change to rebrake with CCB (Porsche type) finish. Also need to add more cooling.

Wheels are F12 super light so I can run GTO comparable tyre sizes in MPS Cup 2.

 

There are lots of steps that can be done prior to making a major internal engine repair. Why not try the oil additive especially as it is designed exactly for the symptom you are experiencing. Chain rattle on startup and a noisy valve train do NOT sound similar and someone with experience should be able to tell them apart. A high level scan tool should be able to tell you if the cam sprockets are deviating due to a stretched chain and eventually they will set a CEL when the stretch becomes too much. Are you interested in performing other major repairs that prompt removing the engine? Is your timing cover leaking? The chain tensioners on the 430 V8 are wear items and will cause chain rattle even when the chain is not stretched. It sounds like you need more quality information from your “specialist”

 

Happy New Year

Thank you for the reply. Cam covers will need doing before next track session. RHD bank, as you look at the car from the front, rear most spark plug was wet and a weep can be seen from the rear of cam cover.

Engine out not required at the moment. Specialist can do timing chain with engine in place. Front bumper also needs work as the previous owner had a small fender bender

Will definitely discuss the points you have mentioned.

 

yes, its a heavy car while on track. at the Ring, it must be amazing but also you are taking a lot out of it! but its only money at some point. have fun and stay safe, its a lot of HP at the Ring.

 

It is a heavy car but similar modern cars seem to be the same weight or more. New M3 xdrive is also 1800 kg
https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/all-models/m-models/m3-series/m3-series-saloon-2024-g80-technical-data.html/bmw-m3-competition-m-xdrive-saloon.bmw

The weight does take its toll on suspension and brakes. The suspension doesn't cope over the bumps as well as needing lots more maintenance

But she is still very fast and capable of surprising the standard go to option of a Porsche GT car.

 

I LOVE that this car is being used as it should.

Please note the wear changes. Most never get this kind of use.

 

I've had mine on track 3 - 4 times, and it is amazing. however only once was it all day, and it was a fairly easy track on brakes ( Roebling road ) .... Road Atlanta after about 10 laps you can feel the grab of the brakes and then after about 15 - 20 laps, you have to squeeze harder for the same force... and you smell the pads for sure.

 

The brakes are one weak point when you really hammer them. I have changed to Castrol SRF, braided lines and Pagid RSC1 pads and GTO doughnuts but it's not enough.

Plan is to change to GTO ABS ECU, add the GTO cooling ducts (to caliper) additional cooling duct to disc centre, HGTE wheel arch liner (supposed to have a bigger opening for more air flow), Rebrake discs with CCB finish and Pagid RSC2 pads (FF of 0.7 compared to standard pad of 0.4, same as RSC1). This should will help braking performance as well as longevity.

 

There are much better brake rotor transforms out there than what came in Ferraris of our vintage. Problem is finding someone who will provide a set with matching pads.

 

Interestingly Ferrari still use the same chopped fibre CCM technology on the latest cars, as do McLaren. The major improvement has come in caliper and cooling.

Both Pagid and Endless provide pad options for the 599 caliper.

First major issue I have found is heat management, there's simply not enough cooling. Second is compliance, flex in the system giving a long pedal and inconsistent brake feel.

As for newer technology my main preference is for https://www.carbobrake.com/ latest gen3 disc but they wanted a minimum two set production run.

So I opted for https://www.rebrake.de/en/ who had stock available.

Other options are https://www.redisc.si/en/ (I actually think I should have tried these)

And https://www.surfacetransforms.com/ though these guys weren't helpful.

 

My 575 has a custom set of Mov'It ceramics, 396 mm F and 362 mm R, with later technology rotors and huge calipers and pads, but they apparently do not do that anymore.

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/movit-ceramic-brakes-arrived-today.298460/