296 Values and Used Market

It’s not your spec. It’s a beautiful car, but it’s a $500k beautiful car in a market where anyone who’s going to drop $500k on a car wants it built to their specs, or wants it cheap enough where they can live with it.

 

This! It's the anti flipping market. If you buy you better have a longer term ownership horizon to normalize the depreciation curve. You'll loose 20% driving it off the lot and only 10% after 3 years. Good way to burn $100k if someone doesn't want to own for a while and enjoy.

 

Agree that three or four cars is absolutely the sweet spot. Love your comment about Portofino. I own a 2020 and freaking love it. It’s my first (and only) Ferrari after years of buying Porsches and Aston Martins. I had a deposit on a 296 GTS until I took it for a test drive. Ingress was challenging, egress was almost impossible, and I absolutely hated the user interface. A few days later my wife and I went for a ride in my Portofino, after about 30 minutes I told her there’s no way I’m selling this for a GTS.

 

Absolutely right and I don’t want to have a $500k entry level car. I want cars to be cheap enough so that when I’m bored of them I can give them away.

 

This is 100% correct and that is the flaw in Ferraris direction. The increase in production and prices means buying a Ferrari is now a multiple $100k loss every time. They have taken all of the money off the table and keep boasting about €180,000 of profit on each car. Well that profit comes exactly from us and the €180,000 depreciation on almost every new car. No thanks.

 

LOLs. Interesting analogy. I could ask you how you know that but somethings are best left unspoken.

As regards your specification in my opinion the specification is very tasteful and quite close to what I would choose. An old car dealer saying - which I think has some truth to it - is that there is a buyer for every car. And it is really just a matter of time, patience and potentially some flexibility on pricing to find that match. After all given that the first owner of the car chose the specification one way, it is just a matter of time that eventually you will find someone else that also digs the same kind of thing.

However I am quite surprised at how expensive used 296 GTBs seem to be in the USA, compared to my country which is the UK. As another UK based OP (@Dino_Argento) on this forum said elsewhere is is not unusual to find 1 year old 296 GTBs asking 40% below RRP inclusive of options although some of the tastiest main dealer cars are more like 20% below. I've done a bit of number crunching on the market for these kind of cars in the UK and the bottom line is that there are an unusually high number of used 296 GTBs on sale in the UK right now: about 13% of the overall pool of registered cars is currently for sale. This compares to an average of between 5% and 7% for other Ferraris (456-series, 488-series, 296 GTS), McLarens (720s and Artura, but not the 750S which is 14% but volumes are low on that car anyways) and Porsche's (GT3 Tourings).

Now obviously the USA market will have different demand side things going on. Your economy is a lot stronger than we have here is the UK and likely to remain so. (Frankly things here are only likely to get worse, but I'll stay off the politics as this is a car forum). But the point is that here is the UK and awful lot of supply has come onto the market at the same time that demand has shrunk.

My advice: if you want to be rid of the car, then be prepared to take a haircut getting out. My impression is that supple of used GTBs is high in the US. It would not take too much of a weakening of demand for the US market for GTBs to echo pricing weakness seen in the UK given the easy supply situation.

 

I 100% agree with what you are saying @roma1280

IF we are offered a 296VS, but its another over produced mass market car we will pass. There are so many wonderful older cars that lose zero money (may increase in price) and are far far more interesting.

(I don't know if you are into true drivers cars. if you are, go drive a new Porsche Spyder 718 RSR. That car ruined me for all other sports cars. I absolutely love our RSR...more than our 296 GTS. We are keeping the GTS for now in anticipation of being offered a VS)

I have a theory. 80% of all high end cars/ exotics etc are bought as a 'flex'.

Flex: Flexer: Showing off, self expression..etc. As a flexer, you probably aren't a traditional car guy. Example: you follow F1 because you started watching the Netflix series, you have never changed your own oil, never did any track time beyond a local follow the leader tour. You spend countless hours comparing specs. You are into cars because you simply want to have a bad ass car that tells the world you are bad ass). For a flex buyer, uniqueness matters. If a flexer shows up at the local cars and coffee with his new Ferrari sf90 and there are 5 other sf90s there as well he will quickly lose interest. How many $250k++ NEW cars are there now? Add to this the previous generation of super cars (flex cars...) and its clear there is over saturation.

Think about all the $$$$ hyper cars that are being created. Its mind boggling. Now, add in the sea of resto-rods that are close to $1m usd. I have met many Singer owners and ever once...not once...have they wanted to talk about the mechanical aspects. They know their motors are 4.0s but no idea what that means, how they were build...what a connecting rod is. Its always about their specs and color choices. Again, God bless them. I have ZERO issue with flexers. I love that they are embracing the car hobby and using their auto selections as a form of self expression.

Moving along....

Same parking lot, same C&C. Another guy (who is also a flexer) shows up in a vintage 1980s Porsche 930, E30 M3 or maybe a Lambo from the 90s...he wins. No one will look at the Sf90s...

Bottom line of my working theory, modern classics will be the new flex car. Not the new stuff. YOUNGER folks will be the new buyers for the cars from the 70s-90s. Not Generation X and older.

 

hi Simon thanks for your thoughtful comments and welcome to ferrari chat. Yes I think the UK is the canary in the coal mine although with the right hand drive dynamic the secondary values do seem to fare a lot worse. You’re absolutely right about the haircut at the moment I’m looking for any price. It’s probably going to end up on BaT so the market will dictate the price.

 

A properly specced 296 VS will probably be $600k+ and will not be limited and maybe they will do a GTB and a GTS. So for those that want a go-even-faster 296 and spend another $100k to $150k extra (by then regular GTBs will be $300k) then go for it. To your point, think about what (appreciating) cars from the 1990s and 2000s could be bought with $6-700k.

Those that are enamored with the car (and it is undoubtably a highly capable car) should absolutely go for it and should enjoy any version of the 296, regular or VS, in the best of health.

 

I don't know that the 296 VS will "go faster". and if it does, at this point does it matter? I don't think the SF90 XX is much faster - maybe a tad lighter- but it's more just body kit and aero on that car. VS will likely be the same. Pista had a legit 70 hp difference between 488 and Pista- can they squeeze 70 more hp out of 296? It already blazingly quick

 

I'm not sure who is more bitter between the two of us.

 

You both seem to have just cause. I certainly know you do. The entire supercar ownership experience is becoming monotonous with the hybrids.

But if we can look past the cynicism and see the 296 for what it is, I really love it. It's an amazing car to own. But I'm also 36, pretty tech savy. Flexible enough to handle the ingress and egress without looking like a fool (not saying you can't I know you move like a cheetah still).

I look at a car like the 296 and think there is ZERO % chance my 68 year old dad could have one. Haptics, not going to work. Ingress and Egress, not going to work. Too much speed and performance. Ferrari is in an odd position in that they're pumping out these new models with tighter interiors, more difficult to use and fathom UI, and ultra performance to an older and older clientele (bc most ppl who can afford to buy all the models are over 55, lets be real).

So, are new Ferraris' for younger men and last gen and backwards for older? Are there enough enthusiasts under 40 to keep buying the corporate BS, even if the product is great? Because electric cars offer more performance for far cheaper.

My new Rivian R1S Tri Motor absolutely feels quicker from 20-60 mph than the 765 or 296. 6600 pound SUV. Crazy world we are in now, and that's not even the most powerful one.

 

Oh great, make me feel old!!! I’ve been with my wife for 34.5 years. Damn whipper snapper. You are correct, it was much easier to get in/out of cars when I was 36. Mid 50s now and I feel my age when trying to look cool getting in/out and not end up in pain the next day. lol.

To add a little context to real world pricing. My 296 GTB was a ‘22 with MSRP of 392k. RC with black racing seats and full carbon on exterior. Perfect resale spec. Had one dealer offer 250k and another offer 265k. Was told I’d probably get 300k IF I wanted to get into another Pista or 812 GTS (and of course paying over MSRP for those). I had multiple dealers tell me they are too many used ones and brand new ones that customers cancelled and lost deposits on, sitting in inventory for way too long. No one wants to take on additional inventory and the consensus is there are more cars produced than customers looking to buy. Of course, that is the wholesale value and the overall thought from a few dealers would be a value of 310-330k at retail.

Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, I think this is the new normal until something gives in Ferrari world. With 13k cars being produced the market is going to be saturated and people are going to be stuck with huge losses. Gone are the days of buying to flip, buying coupe to get a spider or buying multiple cars to be eligible for a VS.

Best way to deal with it is if you are going to buy new, enjoy the car, don’t sell it and you won’t have to worry about a loss. Alternatively figure the loss is the price to play or buy pre-owned and get an awesome car at a great price.

 

I'm a tech guy and can figure just about anything out however if you need to improvise or read a manual to manage your cars entertainment then it is a fail. It really shouldn't be this difficult.

The older guys I know barely drive the newer Ferraris, they drive G wagons, RRs, Cullinans, etc. No one is driving SF or 296 around. Maybe a Roma or 812.

 

one less 296 so value of others going a little up
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DD2geSFyRCk/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

I don’t know that I’m ready to stop buying sports cars- but this what I Am going to do. Stop speccing over priced specs. I’m not going to let some idiot sales man talk me into options I don’t want . I’m usually pretty good about this stuff but I just got my 750- 480k. Jesus. It’s an expensive car and I probably Could have saved 50k if I didn’t get talked into such options. It’s my fault but no more. I’ll buy used and save a ton. I don’t need to have my
Own special spec anymore. I know many of you are already there- I’m there now. Buy used and save $$

 

You say this now…..lol

 

I believe you are right about the $600k price and over production. Depreciation and over saturation could be a huge problem. Oh and let us not forget that Ferrari is going to produce a mid size EV SUV that YOU KNOW will be a required purchase.

$600k is more than enough to have your cake and eat it too. Buy 2-3 of your dream cars. Assume most older cars will be around 1% of value per year to keep healthy and will AT LEAST hold value. Less to insure and offer a driving experience that the new stuff never will.

Off the top of my head...by no means a complete list:
- 964 RS (mid $200s)
- 964 Turbo (mid $200s)
- Scuderia (low $300s)
- 360 CS (less than $200k)
- Emory outlaw 356 ($400k...3 year wait)
- 2019 Speedster (low $400s)
- 992.1 GT3RS (prices are finally falling into the $300s)...991.2 RS, OMG are those cars epic on the right road.
- GT4RS or SRS Less than $250k). SRS = best sports car ever.
- 356 4 cams ($200s-$500k)
- 1990s Lambos...IMO very under valued.
- Lambo STO, Performante....
- McLarens galore.
- If you don't want a sports car....those new RR and Bentleys are ALL less than $250k.

Newer stuff, the car that truly bends the space time continuum....
c8 ZRI. (less than $200k).

Japanese cars aren't my focus but there are lots of fun options to consider.

 

so what is your prediction about Ferrari future as company if other vip customers think as same as you? will Ferrari became next Maserati/Porsche with cars that have massive depreciation and lack of exclusivity?

 

There are many many VIPs in the same
Boat as @roma1280. I’m a small time fish and got tired of the Ferrari games and I hardly played in that field. Bought a brand new Pista from the dealer and can’t even get invited to their launch events. lol.

 

I agree with that last part. I'm a millennial and bought a couple late 90s cars back in 2023 and currently looking to add another if I can find the right one (all from Japan). As far as the flex part I have zero interest in C&C and already gave up going to my local real car show in Orlando area (Celebration Festival of Exotic Cars). I've always preferred watching track events and really like historic festivals with the older race cars. I probably never will track a car at an event like that as I'm more of keeping my cars mint and period correct rather than racing and likely breaking something. Hopefully this year I can go to the Goodwood Festival of Speed, but the Classic 24 Hours at Daytona nearby is pretty cool as is the current-day Rolex 24.

 

Sorry to hear that. I don't understand that business model. A few months back I stopped by my local dealer. Went straight to the desk and informed the receptionist I'm looking to purchase a specific car that probably is off market and to speak with a sales rep. Guy comes up and I tell him exactly and we discuss for what feels like an hour about other race cars and challenge cars. I emailed him after he gave me his business card and he never replied. I give up on US dealers...now I pretty much only do business with dealerships in Japan and maybe Europe soon, but I prefer the specs in Japan. With the cars I like over 25 yo now (1990s) I can just import them easily.

 

I’ve owned a lot of boats over the years. One salesman who I probably bought 5 boats from used to tell me ‘there are new boat people and used boat people, you’re a new boat person’. And he was spot on, I never bought a used boat because as much as I much as I loved running boats, I really loved spec’ng them. And every time I sold a boat and got creamed on it I always said never again…but you know what, I still couldn’t bring myself to buy a used boat.

 

Well, let’s see … they have just sold out of 800 F80s at $4m a pop. The car probably costs them $1m to make so that’s $2.4bn of profit over the next 2 years. They may make a few hundred more spiders on top of that, then they will release an SP4 and an SP5 and an SP6 which will have similar economics and will sell out. Meanwhile the order book is sold out for 2 years and then there will be VS of each car that will be offered to people that have never had one, so they will sell out too. Meanwhile a few rich people are complaining that they lost $100k on a used car and Ferrari will track the inventory for sale and not like it but ultimately will not care at all. So my prediction is that the company is going to be just fine for quite a while.

 

When I started my Ferrari journey- same story. Went to the store, ready to pull the trigger. Brand new 488 sitting in the showroom- asked to sit in it, test drive it. no go. got the old- we can maybe get you in a car in 18 months. and there is literally a car sitting in the showroom. Went to a 3rd party dealer and bought a Ferrari there the same day. Drove it to the dealer and the sales guy was floored. to be fair- their GM did me right and got me a pista cause of that- but after he left, purosangue launch party at the dealer- no invite. Roma launch party at the dealer- no invite. Went to Pebble to the car show- couldn't get into Casa de Ferrari. Im a nobody. But I'm a nobody that has a little bit of money to burn.

Now there just isn't a new Ferrari that interests me other than cars that I can't get so Ive moved on. just got my 4th Mclaren delivered and love it. Would love to buy another Ferrari some day but not till I find something I love.