F80 Reportedly Having Issues Selling

This is why a Lamborghini Diablo Roadster is such an underrated car. It has all the attributes in bold, and is even close in production numbers at 450. Its only apples to apples competitor is a $3M+ car.

 

The car without historic value is going down quickly. I don’t think we will have enough serviceman or technician to work on ‘lesser’ cars. In this way of thinking, Ferrari cars will have higher chances than others in terms of incentives the job will give one. But the thing is with metal printing and plastic printing aside, there are too many parts that can not be fixed but replaced, which is a biggest problems now in modern cars now and this situation will not get better with time. LCD screen for instance.

So, I don’t see 296 is getting fixed in 2038.

 

Plenty qualified, but I don't like the packaging of the new cars. They are not mechanic friendly at all.
For instance, fixing a valve cover leak on a 488. Engine out, gearbox removed, camshafts must be locked down, because the upper camshaft bearing is cast into the valve cover. It's a massive amount of work, and a big liability if something goes wrong.

That's just one example of many others.

 

LOL. I'd be willing to bet that Ferrari could have easily been released the SP3 as the F80...The only reason these cars are Halo cars is because Ferrari deems them so (I'm looking at you 288 GTO LOL), but had they presented the SP3 as the next Halo car people would not be questioning it's credentials. But that's nether here nor there and it's all a mute point...The SP3 is Halo adjacent (aka Icona, which Ferrari just made up to justify it) which is close enough and if I was a betting man I'd bet that SP3's will be far more valuable than F80s in the future. But this poses an interesting question that I touched on earlier...never has Ferrari done something so "halo adjacent" like this in between halo cars so it will be interesting to see what happens going forward. What will the next Icona be? And how many Icona cars will we get from now until the F90?

Lamborghini positioned themselves extremely well and that's why especially with the Aventador and the Revuleto they sit at the perfect market segment. To get anything similar you literally have to spend $1M+ for a mid engine, V12 (NA or turbo) if you're looking for something new. And if you're dead set on a V12, you really can only get a Pagani, GMA or Aston Martin with the Valkyrie. But if similar is ok then Koenisegg will give you V8, the F50, Enzo and LaFerrari will give you the V12, Bugatti will give you a V16 or W16 and Hennesey will give you a V8. But all of those cars are astronomically more expensive.

 

Absolutely! Hybrids are consumable products, moving away from mechanics to make way for digital. They will cost so much to maintain that they have no future on the second-hand market. Go tell the third owner in 7 years that they need to change the hybrid unit, the disks and potentially a screen or haptic controls. it's more money than the price at which he has to buy the car, no one will go for it !

 

EV's/hybrids = transport appliances. To be used, then, discarded.

 

This is a very interesting point that no one's talking about too much but is going to be a big issue going forward...the longevity of these machine as in general fashion, as manufacturers (digital product ones are the most guilty of it) keep infringing upon the right to repair...so let's say in 7 years when the hybrid battery system needs a major repair or to be replaced out of warranty...what's that cost going to look like? And how will it impact values? On the LaFerrari and F80 I don't see that being as big a problem since at that price point the owners will be extremely annoyed, but they are keeping the very top of the range car in top form so that comes with the territory. But 296's and SF90's will be an interesting story...as will all other hybrid cars (not just singling out Ferrari here). 2035 is going to be wildly interesting. Maybe the Telsa bots will be performing the serving before they rebel and turn on skynet? I kid but it is going to be super interesting to see how this hybrid / EV tech affects the secondary market.

To chime into the topic of Ferrari as a company, they have done a lot to grow and expand the company, and the current line up is a reflection of that. I hate the Purosangue but I am happy they threw the V12 in it and I know the car will make them a lot of money, so they are being smart. The biggest hope is that they don't lose the Ferrari "magic" factor. Perfect example is the 458 and the SF90. The SF90 is stupid fast and has more performance than 95% of drivers can ever squeeze out of it. But drive a 458 Italia and you'll instantly understand why supercars are a thing and why they spark such passion and fanfare. Beside the 458 being one of the top 5 best sports cars of all time IMHO, the driving feel, sound and experience you get resonates with magic. It's primal, it's joyful, and it's obsession-inducing. In the SF90 that feel of magic is not as strong. We live in an era where everyone makes a fast car. Speed isn't the problem. horsepower isn't the problem. It's how the car looks, feels, sounds and connects to the driver. So Ferrari will do what it needs to do to grow and thrive, but as they get bigger and make more models, the most important question is can they keep that magic factor that makes us all them so much in the first place? Cars like the SP3 and the 812 Competizione show that they still got it, but cars like the SF90, 296, 12Cilindri and F80 do give some cause for concern.

Rowan Atkinson summed up this fear best when back in 2004 he was comparing his McLaren F1 to his then brand new Bugatti Veyron: "In the McLaren I feel like a driver and the car is my instrument. In the Bugatti I feel like a very well informed passenger."

 

First off, in my eyes, there are way too many supercars on the market. They all go fast, and they all achive these levels of performance the exact same way. There is nothing extremely different about them.

How many 2+million dollar cars are on the market now? They all use some sort of battery boost system, they all use a DCT gearbox, they all use an ever shrinking gas engine, and they all use screens and a massive amount of computers to keep the thing somewhat drivable.
It's boring. And to put it into perspective, the fastest production car right now is the 4 million dollar Bugatti. It's only 43 mph faster than a 1991 Diablo.

 

I don’t think so. The beauty with the restoration industry is that any competent workshop with sufficient skill to do the work can attempt to restore a 246. The complexity of a 296 means that very few outfits will possess the technical expertise and tooling to do it. A lot of the so-called restoration will be fixing electronic components…

I must say that even though the current generation is less attracted to cars from the 50s and 60s (driving experience, reliability, manual gearboxes etc) resulting in flat/depressed values, I am getting more interested!!

 

But couldn’t you make the case that restoring an ECU or a 30 year old electric motor will someday be as exciting as restoring a 30 year old carburetor is today? Restoring is less about the object itself and more about bringing something from the past back to life. YouTube is filled with videos of folks restoring 50 year old dressers they find on the side of the road when they can just buy a new one for a fraction of the time and material cost … even items that weren’t all that hign quality to begin with. Restoring an old Ferrari will always be a thing and to say that restoring electronics is less exciting than restoring something mechanical is missing the point … there are plenty of people that restore old computers that serve no actual purpose in modern times … I just think that in 2050 there will be plenty of folks restoring SF90s and the like.

 

Perhaps 20 years ago. There is where it belongs performance and technology wise in the Ferrari halo cars hierarchy.

 

This is exactly the point. I have been loosely following Tavarish’s restoration of that flooded P1. Of course, a P1 has more value than a 296 will in 20 years. But the number of independents focusing on carbon technology, battery technology and all the items that go into a modern day hybrid, is already surprising. They are already at it - maybe even learning from the early hyper cars in the same way the original manufacturers do. If electronics were an obstacle to restoration, cars of 10 to 15 years ago would fare worse, having earlier electronic circuits, yet nobody thinks an F12 or 458 would not get restored. Electronic dash items have been surprisingly reliable as far as I’m aware. They have been in cars for decades already - various Japanese cars had them in the 80’s.

The ability to keep a car like a 296 on the road indefinitely already exists. Perhaps the cost is a consideration - especially where the battery is concerned. However, Tavarish’s experience of the P1 battery, when they broke it down, was that it was full of commonly available, relatively inexpensive cells and could be re-manufactured for a fraction of the price of the OEM supplied unit. Currently, battery suppliers charge OEMs a high price and OEMs add their own spare parts margin (which has to cover holding cost, obsolescence etc.) In future, this may well be one of the items that the OEM loses control of (like has already happened with performance brake replacement for many brands) and it simply ends up with independents, at a fraction of the original price. The battery car is here to stay in various forms, there is already more than enough historic volume for these independent providers to create an industry out of.

 

In the context of this discussion, this is an interesting video. Not sure how many people know of this channel but he is a thoughtful and pretty well-researched guy who has had a wide and eclectic car-ownership journey, including various Ferraris. I don’t post this as ‘evidence’ that old is bad, good is better because that will always remain subjective. Instead, I think it is an interesting commentary on why, in the future, tastes for what is then older may be different from today. And that, of course, will have an influence on values. The video follows a couple of high-profile F40 accidents in the last week.

 

I think we would see far fewer 296 restored compared to 458's, 488s and F8s, let alone 360s and 430s (simpler cars, fewer electronics). The economical cost to restore a 296 and F8 would be pretty similar given the amount of tech in both cars is relatively similar.

As time moves on the 296, F8 etc will very likely be seen as dead slow. A 458/360/430 will be seen as the more exciting, engaging, aurally preferred cars to spend time and money restoring.

Cars these days have an enormous amount of computing in them, which are a) expensive and b) become obsolete quite quickly c) cost of manufacturing is very high. Repairs can be done but parts will be sparce, so DIY will be the way. Possible, yes. What we'll most likely see from cars the age of F12s, 458s etc, they'll probably have all their electronics gutted and replaced with an aftermarket ECU and PDM. There will be a huge amount of time involved in setting the parameters and getting all the sensors to work together (or in some cases sensors will need replacing with non original aftermarket units). The good part of all that is that things will actually be simplified, work better and faster and from the outside it'll almost be impossible to tell. And it would be nice to work whatever the equivalent of google maps, spotify and so on as well, and fully seamlessly and integrated.

interior and exterior parts will be easy. With 3d scanning, 3d printing etc being easily available today already, it'll only get better. So none of that will be a problem.

I just can't really see people getting *that* excited for the 296 over a 458 for example. Will it happen...sure.

 

One thing about the newer cars that most people aren't thinking about is the software. Too many manufacturers are using copyright and encryption laws to prevent the reverse engineering and independent repair of vehicles. John Deere is currently the worst, but others are right on their trail. You could have a perfectly good replacement part (whether used or created by a third party) and still not be able to use it due to serial number lockdowns or other CANBUS games.

Batteries are a pain, but they're at least replaceable. When the law prevents people from tearing apart older software (for a century!) things get bad. That may be the real cause of future "unrestorable" cars.

 

This will not be done, because on the one hand the costs of restoration will be much higher than the value of the car, and on the other hand it has no historical value, neither in terms of line, race result, or engine (A V6 TT Hybrid has more a place in a Japanese manufacturer than in the Ferrari range).
These are consumable products and have no future in collection... And in view of the stock that does not find a buyer on the second-hand market, owners have already noticed it...

 

I don’t think history bears that out. The 246 Dino has no real racing pedigree, has a 6-cylinder engine and doesn’t even bear the Ferrari name, yet it is, today, more valuable than the 8’s that replaced it and bore the famous name. When you look at the cost of many restoration projects, the value is not so much in the end product but in the restoration journey itself. There have been plenty of low-value but interesting sports cars of various brands, sold through auctions and the classifieds, where the cost of the wreck plus the cost of the restoration equal less than the final value.

Whatever you feel about the history of Ferrari compared with the current products, in the future a 296 will still be a comparatively interesting car and it wears a very famous badge. I just don’t know how either of those things can be questioned. If you restore a 296 in 2050, where life and technology will be quite different to now, you will still be restoring a very old-fashioned vehicle, without autonomous driving, with a combustion engine, that seats two people, has curvy, low and sporty lines and you might even remember your father driving one or lusting after one that he could never own. It will have the same format as those old ‘20’s’ F1 racers and make a mechanical noise like they did. Some people will restore one because it is hard to do (as restoring an E-type or Jensen Interceptor is today) and because it is there to be done. A 296 just isn’t a consumable product, it’s a Ferrari, and a very good one. I don’t even own a 296 so I don’t really care what people think of them. But judging by my friends who do own them and those who can’t, it is a very desirable, and comparatively rare, car.

Sure, condemn it as some of the Ferraris of old that were unloved - for example the 400 - but even sone of those have been restored. Maybe not every one and some no doubt find their way to the auto graveyard. I think it’s easy to over-estimate things changing but I’m not sure they do that much. The idea of a disposable Ferrari seems quite incongruous to me but there we are.

 

I'm glad you mentioned the 246 Dino which is one of those models that seemed to have everything going against itself. It was not considered a Ferrari, it is small in size, does not stand out for its performance, and has a V6 engine, with less capacity than what was the previous Ferrari tradition. So let's see, having been produced more than 3500 units of the 246 why on mobile De. there are only 9 units for sale? Which is also the reason why the average price of a 246 can be eight times that of the 308 GT4 that preceded it, a full-sized Ferrari, more powerful and with a V8, and of which fewer units were produced, only about 2800 ?

What stands out about the 246 and what really sets it apart IMO is its superior aesthetic. It's one of those cars whose design is timeless and at the same time exceptional. Whatever the angle from which we contemplate the 246 it looks phenomenal. I think that's what makes it so desirable and simultaneously so valued. The example of the 246 also applies to other Ferraris that have seen strong appreciation mainly because their aesthetics and lines make them especially desirable.

 

perhaps this is an American thing, but literally 99% of all restorations cost vastly more in labor and materials than the end product is worth. Monetary value is NEVER the point … people will spend $100k to restore something that’s worth $15k in the end because … they can. Maybe it’s sentimental value or just the joy of bringing the past back to life. If anyone is interested in such things, I highly recommend Sarah-N-Tuned on YouTube … she is currently restoring a 1974 Toyota freaking Celica and it’s incredibly fascinating … wether you consider that car to be art or not, the work itself is the art. Just an enthusiast striving to improve her craft … so to think someone someday wouldn’t invest that same time, passion and money into a 296 because it has computers is ludicrous.

 

I have a 355 airbag module/ECU that needs a new Motorola chip in order for it to function again. I cannot source one from anybody. The ECU itself is NLA.
New Ferrari 360 ECU's are also NLA and very difficult to repair due to the boards being coated in a silicone goop.
A 458/F12 radio module is ridiculously expensive for what it does, and they fail often enough to be a concern. 458 parking brake modules are available but scarce and fail on the regular. Sometimes you can bring them back with a recoding, but more often then not they need to be replaced.
Next are the tools required to service these cars. Not cheap. A good scan tool capable of coding, set adaptations for the DCT gearbox electronics, accessng traction control modules for programing, ABS systems, and the list goes on are very expensive. Never mind the CAN networks, MOST systems, it's crazy.
Restoration will work to eliminate most of these very complex and intertwined systems. But you will end up with 1/2 a car and possibly one that is very dangerous to operate.

 

Here is one hurdle maybe some of you could help me over come. I'm looking for a left rear wheelspeed/ABS sensor for a 1998 Lamborghini Diablo Roaster. I have tried the usual suppliers, EuroSpares, Scuderia, Lambo Stuff, the dealer network, spoken to a few shops and other suppliers over the phone..nothing. What would your next move be?

 

Oh careful, I got roasted in the F40 market value thread for posting this video!

 

Doesn't he have heat in that room?

 

To a point, yes. But Ferrari could have remained profitable at a considerably smaller size. It did not, for example, need to double production, introduce an SUV, or charge $4mn for its latest Hypercar to survive. Its shareholders and managers chose these paths because they could, not out of necessity.

Ordinarily, I would agree with you. But Ferrari is not just a business, it's a cultural institution. It means something to people that transcends business transactions and the typical mundane tasks of an automobile.

What Ferrari stands for can be debated. We all like to think that Enzo would defend our own particular philosophy. Most of us are probably wrong.

But whatever your views on the topic, surely you can see a difference in the way the company was run under Enzo, LdM and Agnelli compared to the Elkann and Marchionne era. I'm certain that Enzo and LdM cared about profitability, but it didn't appear to be their primary concern. If it was, they did a good job hiding it.

On the other hand, it's difficult to look at the choices of their successors and not conclude that profit maximization is their objective. This was effectively enshrined by the IPO.

Now, profit maximization is not necessarily at odds with building great cars. However, it's bound to invite cynicism when a Ferrarista perceives a violation of the virtues they believe Ferrari is meant to represent.

 

If you have the part, does it show VDO as the manufacturer? Why not contact them for help?
https://www.vdo.com/media/182591/flc_sensors_instrumentation_en.pdf

These shops repair Kelsey-Hayes systems (that's what the 98 Diablo uses for ABS) if they cannot directly help they probably know where to go...

https://atlantaspeedometer.com/store/ebcm-dodge-kelsey-hayes-abs-module-rebuild-p83788035/srsltid/afmboor7bqvlowmriybe5jh_bijqqqvxo-mttrt15ovcapags03pv1rw#!/EBCM-Dodge-Kelsey-Hayes-ABS-Module-Rebuild/p/83788035

https://modulemaster.com/products/kelsey-hayes-430-abs-rebuild-ford-windstar

here's a shop manual that may contain relevant details:

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2009/RCRIT-09V110-1234.pdf