A new ICONA SP4 is coming: Rumors and Speculation

They spent $20 m developing a new manual gearbox for the original California. Guess how many ordered their Cali in a manual? 10. They lost an absurd amount of money. There is this obsessive doctrine amongst enthusiasts that everyone wants a manual, but show me an equivalent manual regular production car that is raking in millions for its manufacturer. I’ll wait…

if Enzo was alive he wouldn’t want Ferrari to be recreating relics he was always about the latest, greatest and fastest. If you want a manual car buy an old car. Simple

 

Point taken but Pagani and others are able to offer a manual and have far less resources than Ferrari. It could be argued the world has changed since 2009!

 

Things have changed. At that time, flappy paddles were novel and interesting. And customers weren't concerned about the extinction of the manual.

Now that it's gone, people miss it.

I think GT3 numbers would be a more useful comparison, as they're offered in the context of today's market. I'm not sure what share are ordered with manuals. I know it's significant.

I would bet that a manual icona would draw significant interest. Even as an expensive option.

As for Enzo, I'm not sure it's worth speculating about how he would view the topic. But if you look at the catalog of street cars produced under his watch, you would not conclude that outright performance was his only concern.

 

It was foolish to spend any money on developing a manual for the California, that's not a 458, had they done it for the 458 (as they had for the 430) it would of sold well, especially for the Speciale. Foolish decision is not appropriate to base a future plan on...

 

I'm a huge fan of three pedal cars. Given the option, I would always choose a manual for a street car.

But if I'm being honest, I'm not sure how the take up would have been for the 458. Better than for the California, which is a different car with a different purpose. But it's not like manual take up was high for the F430.

Plus, the DCT in the 458 was new and cool. Even for me, it would have been a tough choice at the time. (I still would have gone for the manual, though.)

But, times have changed. You don't know what you've got until it's gone. It they offered a manual in a 296 today (not sure if that's even possible with a hybrid, but set that aside), I bet participation would be significant. Less than 50% would be my wager, but more than 20%. Even if it was a $30k optional "upgrade".

 

I had a manual 430 Spider. In 2010-11 I couldn't give it away. Was told less than 5% were ordered w/manuals. Where were all the whiners back then?

 

And...today, on BAT, 6-speed 430 Spiders go for quite a lot, well sought after. Back in 2010-11 we were in the depths of a mini-depression, everything was down, so, that's not exactly a good reference point. Back then you could even buy a Countach for a tenth of what they go for now...

 

If I'd had the money at the time, I would have been happy to take it off your hands!

Sidebar: How are you feeling?

 

Thanks for asking. Graduated from a walker to a cane and started driving again. Almost finished with the Physical Therapy sessions.
I should be ready for the yellow car come Spring.

 

Paganis are not about ultimate performance though. Niche manufacturers like Pagani and GMA offer manuals, but the big boys (Ferrari. Lamborghini, McLaren and Aston with the Valkyrie) think that they are an anachronism.

Konigsegg has an interesting gearbox, where it is basically an 9 speed automated manual, but with the possibility of manually selecting 6 gears (the computer decides based on the selected mode which 6 gears out of the 9 will be available for manual selection) via a lever and clutch pedal. The lever and pedal are not physically connected to the gearbox, they merely send electrical signals to the gearbox, which then changes gears accordingly. Of course you can have the car in auto mode. Nice as a gadget, but I find it too contrived and a toy, just for the sake of pretending to driving a manual. A bit like those PC simulator steering wheels and pedals.

 

Manual is hinted by chief product development officer Gianmaria Fulgenzi for a future Icona.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/ferrari-manual-transmission-sports-car-plans-possibilities/

 

Manual V8 for the rumored F40 Icona perhaps? Especially now that LH44 have been touting it as his dream project. Not that such a project would need much marketing to start off with.

 

My ultimate dream Icona (never going to happen of course) would be based on the 250 GT California Spyder

 

I hope its V12

 

An Incona w/o V12 would be like a cat w/o claws

 

i would like something based off 333sp as a track day special

 

I do see your point but imagine an F40 inspired icona with a turbo V8 AND a manual gear box? That would be highly acceptable.

 

Enough with turbo or hybrid. V12 NA and stick please.

 

You're right. That would clearly be the best icona.

 

this should be in regular Ferrari car not 3 milion $ limited that most of time will stay deep in some collector garage

 

Ferrari’s been there and done that. Unfortunately people spoke with their wallets and didn’t buy them. So I think special limited models are only where it makes sense. Even then I question how many would really want a manual Icona. I would but I also recognize manual seems to be in the vast minority (at least historically) when it comes to real sales.

 

It was a tiny minority in the 599 and F430.

But things have changed a lot since then. DCTs were and remain great, but the novelty has worn off. And a lot of people miss manuals now that they're mostly extinct.

I'm not suggesting that manuals would account for a majority of orders. But I don't think the comparison to order books from twenty years ago is valid. GT3 order books are probably a better parallel, at least for some models. Or, more likely, it's somewhere in between.

Not that I expect Ferrari to put them in the lineup. And as much as I wish they would, I'm not sure I can blame them. The cost and complication of an entirely different architecture in the hybrid era would be substantial. They must also be concerned about the risks of owners damaging clutches - or worse - in an age where 900bhp is routine.

 

Definitely good points and I agree. As far as cost of one off and power goes, the Aston Martin Valour might be a good reference. They built a custom manual transmission for that car (didn't recycle the V12 Vantage 7 speed) and the reason was the power. They had a hard time creating a clutch that could handle that much (from what I recall)

 

^ maybe a clutchless stick shift? porsche did that in the 70’s with the 911L

 

That’s always a possibility. Effectively, the shifting is an “e-stick” with no clutch and it shifts like paddles do (electric / digital signalling). The driver’s stick and gate are still there. You get the shift and gate “clink clank sounds when “shifting” as well as a tuned feeling of the transmission engaging. And no clutch to engage and burn out. Easier for new drivers.

There is so much torque and power on cars today that true manual clutch-based shifting with a 1000hp, 850torque powertrain with a planted foot at a launch is going to use up clutches at a quick rate. I think the cutoff point was around 600hp / 550 torque to safely and easily not destroy the clutch while getting a safe and great launch while also not ripping up the launch.

I would guess that when automatic shifting came out, some key reasons why manual shifting was cool were 1) automatic shifting was slow and unreliable. 2) Manual shifting was faster to do, better performance, and more reliable. 3) Plus being able to do it made one look like they were a cool driver who was an “expert” driver. Even up through the early 90s, this was true. It wasn’t till the early 2000s, that the Audi DCT was the first automatic that outperformed manual. Then it was 2009 w/PDK and 458 with DCT that manual went to 2nd place. I still remember a 90s mid engine owner complaining to me that “it’s too late , it’s over…the true market is 80% manual.” LOL…what true market? As I say, every new approach brings something great but leaves something nostalgic.

As of today, manuals advantage is really one of “it’s raw” But manual still hangs on in the hearts of a decreasingly smaller market. Just the facts. Ferrari is playing to win as a company. How many car companies have a 40% EBITDA? None. Not even close. They plum 10% of the 40% back into R&D. No other company has remotely that amount of absolute $ going into product concept and R&D. This is one of the smartest management teams with great execution.

That means offering the right combination of features to beat other companies. Which they are pummeling. They are smart enough to make models for various segments. If they think a manual segment is big enough, they will do it. If it’s a e-manual they will do it. Anecdotal opinions don’t count for data driven decisions. The Ferrari market has always been much broader than us here on FChat.