Ferrari F80

How is that the case? Was the brief given to him about aggression plus the fact that it was an update on the same platform somehow too restrictive? I say this because your original evaluation of the 12C, before anybody else had seen it, was that it was a beautiful design. Hence it was clearly possible for him to create an elegant design. Since I have now seen the 12C a couple of times I think it is much more elegant than the F12 and the 812. I never liked the F12 to drive so didn’t buy one. I think the design is not so strong as many here say (though with all these beautiful cars we’re talking about degrees), a point proven by how much the TDF enhanced it and deserves its universal praise. That is a much more successful design to my eyes and I definitely would have bought one if I could have. The 812 is still somewhat elegant - in the way all Ferrari front V12s really are - and aggressive, which I like. I have come to appreciate the 12C more though. Strange because in terms of ‘aggression’ it is less than both the TDF and the 812. There is something that feels really good about the proportions and solves the thing I dislike most about the F12 - the bonnet line is low and gives the car a very lithe and sleek appearance. F12 always looks too thick around the midriff (I should really forgive it for that because I have a similar problem!)

 

I will never understand

Simplicity and minimalism is the hardest to achieve because you have nowhere to hide. I am obsessed with minimalism in architecture, simple lines are extremely difficult to execute everyone can easily hide behind an extremely busy design.

I showed someone photos of my second house, at least, I think it was my second, and they asked, "Who stole your furniture?" I couldn't have been happier to hear that LOL
At that moment, I knew I had achieved exactly what I wanted. I've built a few more since then, but there's still one left to go, I will take my time with this one. Now that the kids are grown, I’m going all out crazy!

 

I'm not an architect but I have always greatly appreciated minimalist architecture and the designs that prioritize simplicity, functionality, the elimination of unnecessary elements and which focus on clean lines. This is probably the reason why I cannot empathize with some of Manzoni's designs that embrace ornamentation and complexity.

 

Completely agree that there's no right or wrong in either preference.

However, I wouldn't say that divisive design elements are "for the good". No design will be universally loved, but I don't think good design is polarizing. My perspective is undoubtedly colored by my own biases, but I do believe the black trim is very polarizing

 

You missed my point.

I am not talking about when the cars were launched, I'm referring to how people perceive their design over time. These cars at some point in their future were perceived as maybe not so good looking, therefore they were not sought after which made them cheap as nobody cared for them. Now we look at the design and appreciate what they stood for when they were created. They were ahead of their time, now time has caught up with their esthetic. My point is it can take time, at some point most people who do not appreciate the 12C or F80 will as they start to appreciate their esthetic, which makes them different but still signature Ferrari.

 

The specifications for the 812 were a more aggressive design than the F12 to situate the car as a mid-front-engined supersport. The second of the 3 sketches was really good, but unfortunately Marchionne chose the third one which corresponds to the 812 we know. Manzoni was not very happy about it, but no one went against the advice of Marchionne.Concerning the 12C, I always liked it, but the design is not Manzoni.Il was originally a very nice detail that disappeared, the badge on the front was "under" the paint varnish and not in metal relief as we know it. The only thing that bothers me about the 12C is the quality of the headlights and taillights, Ferrari does not want to invest in these parts unlike Aston Martin, which makes very nice blades of excellent quality .

 

Your point certainly applies to some models but never to the 250 GTO . Since it was launched in 1962 until today it has always been considered the Holy Grail of front engine sports car design. Those who have grown up in the 60's, 70’s or 80’s with car posters on the walls know well that the GTO was an undisputed king.

 

VW levels of cost-savings in €350k+ cars. No one will notice if they just hide them next to a black stripe

 

Ferrari just announced

Not sure everyone felt that way. Here are some guys that lived in California, in the Ferrari club goofing around in their Cal Spider and GTO, cars at that time you could buy used, listed in the local paper for 8K. For perspective, you could have bought a new Ferrari Dino in 1970 for $14,500, or a used GTO for 8,500.



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If you go to 1:20 in the video you can hear the narrator, who is driving the GTO say "it was common to hear that not much was thought of those cars back then". Which is CRAZY to think!!!!

 

This exchange of opinions began when in your post #1936 you stated in a general way that “There was a time that all the cars shown below were seen as not attractive and old, bad Ferrari design.” In the case of the GTO which was a race car, obviously several were sold in the 60's completely worn out and the prices reflect this reality and has nothing to do with the quality of the design. The reality is that over many decades and to this day in terms of design the GTO has been mostly recognized as the Holy Grey of Ferrari front engine cars and there is no other Ferrari model that comes close to it.

 

There was still only 36 of them that had been made in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. They were unappreciated because they looked old-fashioned in the day and the market had not woken up to the collectibility of exotic cars. The Japanese had arrived and LCD watches with angular, sci-fi-led design everywhere. People were more interested in Star Wars than Le Mans or F1. The whole point is that what is interesting, and people’s tastes, radically change over a comparatively small period of time. The GTO has always been beautiful (to my eyes), but not always fashionable or interesting. I would guess that it just seemed aggressive when it was launched (I wasn’t around). Compare it to the SWB or other 250’s and it was full of vents and gouges. I don’t know but my guess would be that the first words that came into people’s minds on initially seeing the GTO were not ‘classically beautiful’ but more thinking of it as an aggressive adaptation of accepted design tastes. Then with time it becomes beautiful, with race victories it becomes collectible and with rarity it becomes valuable. I think we have seen this process over and over.

As people get used to the idea of aggressive styling cues from the past, it is easier to project forward and more easily see a new, aggressive-looking car as immediately beautiful. LaFerrari is a good example. But that still doesn’t mean there is no room for really forward-thinking, extreme, form-follows-function design to become examples of classic and beautiful design in years to come. A couple of examples of that are Senna, which I thought was horrifically terrible at launch and then, a couple of years later, wasn’t. Not everyone sees it that way but that’s how my mind changed (enough to own one for a while) and I know some others felt the same too. That process will probably continue. Another example is the F50, which was certainly not universally praised at launch. The blobby headlamp treatment, compared with the F40’s traditional pop-up arrangement, plus all the exaggerated elements on that car, made many people think Ferrari had lost the plot. Some still hate it. But nowadays, people mostly just think “when did that car get so good-looking?”

The biggest question of all, though, is whether the world can travel back to a time when cars like the 250 GTO can become comparatively value-less again. Maybe not the 250 GTO but cars like it from the modern era. For example a T50 (ok, not exactly like a GTO but still rare, pure and valuable). Currently the value prospect for cars like that doesn’t look too bad but the world can change much more easily than we expect. Question is, will it? Or is the collectible car thing here to stay.

 

The only reason these cars are so valuable (insanely so), is because they are seen as collectable items and not as motor vehicles. Their scarcity, old-world charm and pedigree is what matters, because viewed as cars (i.e. driving machines) they are actually rubbish by modern standards. The fact that they became so valuable in recent years (whereas they were traded for $10,000 a few decades ago) proves that any old and rare object can become a collectable. Another parameter is that behind those crazy transaction prices, sometimes lie nefarious activities, such as money laundering.

Anyway, let 's get back on topic and the F80.

 

In my opinion the answer to your question is yes. We already see it on 60s Ferraris where prices are not crazy compared to modern hypercars (except of course for the super rare like a 250GTO, SWB or a California Spider). “Normal” 50s cars with no race pedigree are doing even worse. Speaking to many of the younger enthusiasts, they simply do not like the way they drive and they expect more excitement/speed. There is also a generation coming after them that -in their majority- don’t drive manuals and place emphasis on phone connectivity and other gadgets because they simply can’t live without them.
It is hard to predict what the sweet spot will be: Modern (relatively) manuals like the F50 and the T50 that feel objectively fast will remain in vogue for a while, but I think there is more of a future in cars like the LaF and SP3, i.e. cars that do not require manual gearbox skills, don’t ask the user to give up their iPhone and still provide speed, sound and a sense of occasion.

As for myself I would love for 60s car prices to soften a fair bit more so I can get rid of all the moderns and have a 250 SWB!

 

The 250 GTO has never been unappreciated for its design or because it looked old-fashioned, quite the opposite. There are those who know the history of this model very well and say that when Pininfarina saw it for the first time he was extremely jealous. He found it hard to accept that such a marvel of automotive design, could have been penned by an engineer, Giotto Bizarrini, who didn’t believe car designers were necessary. Interestingly, something similar happened with the Jaguar E-type.

The 250 GTO was a racing car, almost all 36 units made have raced. However, it gradually passed into obsolescence following the 1964 season. Scuderia Ferrari withdrew the GTO from its racing activity by 1965. By 1967 the GTO was almost entirely absent from international racing, with only a few rally and hillclimb results during that year. As you rightly pointed out, in the 60s the market had not woken up to the collectibility of exotic cars and so an obsolete pure race car like the GTO hardly had any other use. It was only from the late 1970s to the late 1980s that classic car values rose rapidly and the 250 GTO became the most valuable Ferrari model, touted as the Ferrari that most completely embodies the characteristics of the manufacturer.

It is true that at some point the GTO became obsolete as a racing car but on the other hand its design has never stopped being praised since day one.

 

It's still incredible that you can't integrate the idea after thousands of exchanges with different owners that it is the "driving emotion" that is the most important in the purchase of a Ferrari road car !! The performance, of tenths of a second, is for professional drivers and racing !!

 

Have any of the press or bloggers been able to road test the F80? Love to see a 3rd party review.

 

What is more incredible is that you think your opinion is a universal truth. I happen to own a sports car from that era, not a Ferrari but an E-Type, which was considered as a Ferrari equal (though much cheaper) back in the day. Well, I have to tell you that it is an occasion to drive on a Sunday, but objectively it is rubbish compared to modern machinery and that has little to do with absolute numbers (which of course are vastly different). It has to do with the vague and slow steering, the "Lord have mercy on my soul" brakes, and the schizophrenic handling, where you can have both understeer and oversteer in the same corner and don't get me started on the traction. Plus, the less we talk about driving in the wet, the better! So, I guess it also has to do with numbers, because everything I have said can be quantified into numbers, but I was talking about the sensation. Thus, these vintage cars base their prices on nostalgia, scarcity, provenance and collectability, because as driving machines they are relics from the past.

I am done talking about dinosaurs, back to the F80 please.

 

It's not mine, there are many of us here who think that !

 

There are many others who do not!

 

Please take this conversation to the appropriate sections and allow F80 news, information, etc to be shared here.

It's very frustrating getting new replies notifications to a subject I am interested in and awaiting further info etc. and all I can see is whiny off topic discussions, I am not frequenting the sections of the forum which hold no interest to me complaining about cars I do not like, please return the courtesy at the same time understanding that in the world there is room for everything old and new.

 

Hold my beer ...Brian Clough

 

This looks good. Wonder if it’ll work on F80 and if anyone will do it?
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From 4:51 to 5:09.

This F80 definitely doesn't sound like an F80.
Could this be a new exhaust created by Ferrari for the F80?
Could this car be a "mule" to test another engine?