F430f1 Spider Roof dead as a dornail

Hi all. I'm new to the forum world and need some help!

Basically my 2008 F430 f1 Spider roof operation has been a bit poor lately but eventually worked - until last week.

Then a few days ago to my frustration it would only half open and if I waited a few seconds and then pressed the roof operation switch again and it would reluctantly lift the rear hatch but go no further.

After many repeated attempts - no progress. After a minute or so the rear hatch closed on its own (guess hydraulics released) but the main roof would not close.

I then manually gently eased the main folding roof to the almost closed position on the top of the windscreen and operated the roof switch again and it clicked as if fully closed but the dashboard indicates that the roof is not closed.

A day later I thought I would try the roof again. I went to unlock the door with the key fob and the lights flashed but the central locking did not operate! This has never happened before. Is this connected to the roof problem . . .

I then used the key manually and unlocked the door. Got in the car and was about to start the engine when the drivers side window, which had dropped an inch or so as usual, began going up and down the inch or so about 3 or 4 times before stopping.

I then started the car and it fired up easily as usual and all appeared normal on the dashboard, apart from the roof open warning symbol flashing on and off.

Then I went to operate the roof switch and see if there was any change in the roof opening. Nothing happened at all - no sound from the operation of the hydraulic roof pump at all - the roof did not move at all. No unlocking of the roof - nothing.

This morning I found a very informative YouTube video which showed how to access the roof hydraulic fluid reservoir and how to top it up. I followed this and sure enough found the reservoir was down about half an inch below the centre mark and so I topped it up using Mercedes Benz ZH-M MB 342.0 hydraulic fluid. Bit fiddly to access but only took half an hour.

Unfortunately the roof operation switch is still lifeless along with no sound of the hydraulic roof pump working and so no movement of the roof at all.

Have I blown a fuse or relay somewhere or could the hydraulic pump be damaged?

If it is a fuse or relay could this be why the central locking has stopped as well?

Really grateful if anyone help - the weather is perfect for an outing in the Ferrari (roof down) - but roof up - not so good.

Ahhh!, Just went through the User manual fuses bit yet again and found to my delight 2 fuses for 'Soft Top' (guessing roof?) PSF17 45A and PSF18 30A so I'm going to try and find these and check if blown!

Well . . . Just took off panel behand passenger seat (as per Owners Manual) and then fuse block covers - but PSF17 and 18 are not blown and are not the correct amp fuses?? It actually has PSF17 as a 7.5A and PSF18 as a 15A fuse?? - There is no 45A fuse in this area at all. Am I looking at the wrong side?? Don't think so, checked behind driver and fuses don't match up either? What am I doing wrong??

Just had another look at the fuses bit of the owners manual and found 'Soft Top Pump' PSF30 30A fuse again behind the passenger seat - just checked this and it is a BIG 30A fuse - but it was not blown!

Anyone got any ideas?

 

Tricky one. The only common component I can think of with the doorlocking system and the roof system is the Window ECU. That might explain why your windows are behaving erratically.

For door unlocking (using fob), the fob talks to the Alarm ECU, the Alarm ECU talks to the Window ECU and the Window ECU talks to the Door Module (which operates the doorlock actuators).
The Roof ECU also needs to know the position of the windows prior to roof operation (which it gets from the Window ECU).

You may need to do some checks on the window microswitches in the doors, check the wiring between the Window ECU and the doors and check the connectors on the Window ECU.

Do you know how to use an ohmmeter and have some basic tools? I have some wiring diagrams, but there is a steep learning curve with those. Anyway, I should be able to guide you through individual checks.

Of course, knowing these cars, it could be lots of things... and there may be more than one issue. There could be a CANbus issue between the Roof ECU and the Window ECU. You could have a problem with the microswitches in the front part of the roof (where it latches onto the windshield top frame). You may have faulty/ leaky hydraulic rams in that area.

Ahhh... the joys of Spider ownership.

Also see other threads on roof issues. There's a new one every week. In a lot of cases, you will need a scanner which can look at the state of the roof system microswitches (open/closed) and a guide which tells you what state these switches should be in at various stages of opening.

 

P.S. When you tried to open the roof, did both windows drop?

 

Thanks Qavion, Yes - both windows dropped just fine and then the roof problems began. . .
The car is on good quality battery saver when not driven and has no issues firing up the engine now first time but I will double check the battery - just a bleep to get at!
I could kick myself as if I had known earlier about the roof hydraulic level causing these sort of roof issues I would have topped up the fluid when it still worked fine and perhaps might not have inadvertently caused the weird problems to happen. That's the delights of owning a Ferrari Spider!

 

Thanks for the info regarding the CANbus issues , Roof ECU and Window ECU etc - I wouldn't be surprised if this is the actual issue

 

You may need a better battery to handle the Ferrari. Anti-gravity is the way to go as these cars constantly drain regular lead-acid batteries. This causes many issues with the cars electronics. Low voltage drop on the battery will trigger items to not work properly.

Antigravity H6/Group 48 Lithium Car Battery - 40ah

 

Thanks for the info - Just checked and the Antigravity battery is £729 ish with discount but maybe worth a go. Do need to operate the Battery Master Switch before changing or is this a Ferrari specialist only switch?

 

No just turn off the batter cut off switch with a hex T40 key and you swap the battery yourself. Easy job but do be careful when you put the battery terminals back you don't touch any of the metal brackets with your wrench.

 

Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

You don't have any issues with the elastic in the top not pulling back the headliner to trigger the next micro switch do you? This will be after the front unlocks and folds over as the back sails go up and the tonneau cover/bonnet starts to open.

 

Might be but at the moment the roof does absolutely nothing when operate the roof switch - no hydraulic pump noise, no clicks, whirrz - nothing.
Could it be a fuse blown?
I have checked the fuses shown in my Owner Manual and large PSF30 is not blown.

Also looked at PSF17 and 18 but to my amazement these 2 fuses are not 45A and 30 A fuses as shown in my User Manual - they are a 7.5A in PSF17 and a 15A in PSF18 These 2 fuses are NOT blown. Am I looking at the correct fuse box - behind the passenger seat there are 4 fuse and relay covers and the smaller PSF ones are the the block of fuses towards the passenger door which is 5 small fuses long by 4 small fuses across. According to the owners manual its the bottom right fuse and the one to the left of the bottom right.
There is no sign of a 45A fuse here at all??
Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Just to be clear - with engine running - activate the roof switch and zero happens. No windows going down, no sound of roof hydraulic pump operating and no sound or movement of roof whatsoever

 

I have had the F430 f1 Spider for many years and was bought second hand from Egham main dealership and serviced every year etc.
I have only just learnt where the fuses are located and the roof hydraulic fluid fluid etc etc in the last week or so as never had any major issues before.and I have never touched the fuses before. The only thing I have done myself was change the battery once quite a few years ago. The battery was changed when serviced by Ferrari about 3 years ago.

 

Although the engine roars into life at first press of the starter, I thought I would do a regenerate cycle using my battery saver to make sure the battery is working well. Let’s see if it aborts with a fault?

 

The workshop manual specifies PSF 17 and 18 as soft top fuses (45A and 30A) . Not sure what's up with your Owner's Manual. The 360 had fuses not on the main relay/fuseblocks. I'm surprised they aren't blown. PSF18 should be powered by maxi fuse PSF28 behind the left hand seat. I haven't yet figured out where PSF17 gets its power from.

I don't know if you have a LHD or RHD car. When you say passenger and driver's seat, which side of the car do you mean?

Your roof did show some signs of life earlier, that's why I was leaning away from a power issue. Did you check the fuses with a voltmeter (key on)? PSF18 (at least) should be permanently live. Not sure about PSF17.

 

Sorry, correction. PSF29. Anyway, if that was blown, you'd have a lot more issues. It powers at least 8 other fuses.

 

My F430 f1 Spider is a 2008 UK model and so righthand drive. When referring to the soft top fuses I mean behind the passenger seat.
Sounds like I need to get a workshop manual as I am confused about the position of the fuses and there correct rating (my user manual which came with the car seems to show different rated fuses?? - do you have a picture from a F430 spider Workshop Manual so I can be sure which fuses I need to checkout?

I found an old thread by yourself dated 2021 in which the soft top small fuses were rated at 7.5A and 15A which matches my car fuses (see my earlier pictures) so maybe my user manual is incorrect?

In this older thread you also mentioned a relay on the roof hydraulic pump. Grateful if you have any info or pics showing location etc as I would love to check if blown.

 

Forgot to say that in the old thread the other person said he had found the fault was with the control board of the soft top but my user manual has no real info on this either. Do you have any info or pics from a proper Workshop Manual so I can check out if needed?

 

See PMs.

Not sure which is correct. To be honest, 45 amps seems a little high for a fuse in a cluster like this. High amp fuses and relays tend to be located by themselves.

 

To prevent confusion (for me and other readers), could you refer the seats to "L/R hand" rather than "driver/passenger". The relays/fuses are located on the same sides of the car on both versions. I do have a RHD car, but there are mostly LHD car owners on the forum.


LH relay/fuseblocks

Image Unavailable, Please Login
I think I'll amend my wiring diagrams (and WSM if possible) to show your fuse values. Even the roof pump Maxi fuse is a lower rating than that "45 amp" fuse.

 

The relay is mounted on/near the pump & solenoid assembly (behind the LH seat).

Image Unavailable, Please Login

This other thread shows how complex roof issues can get.

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ah-the-fun-of-a-convertible.680583/

There was a lot of trial and error. The manual says somewhere that the pump will run whenever the switch is pushed, but we eventually found out that there is still some microswitch logic required to get the pump to run.

Assuming the roof switch is ok, you need to monitor the microswitches with an OBD2 scanner. Videos need to be taken so we can see which switches are changing state. It's just too difficult to carry out continuity checks on the switches.

 

Many thanks - I will have a look at all the fuses behind the passenger and drivers seats to check for any blown fuses and also check out the relay by the roof hydraulic pump just to see if its a simple fix (doubt it!).

 

I see all your fuses have opaque sides and no cutouts in the tops of them. I can't imagine how tedious it will be to check all the fuses. You don't even know if power is getting to the fuse without pulling them. It might be a good idea to substitute your roof fuses for regular types at least on a temporary basis:

Image Unavailable, Please Login

I would be interested to know if the brown fuse is key power. On the 360, this sends power to the console roof switch and to pin 25 on the top plug of the Roof ECU.

Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Thanks for the tip for fuses.
The brown fuse is only 7.5Amps but the workshop manual and my owners manual specifies it as 45Amps and next to it the blue fuse is only 15Amps but manuals state 30Amps! Why is this??? Seems very odd?

 

Ferrari manuals are full of errors (especially in the electrical sections). The 360 also has 15A (live battery power) and 7.5A (key power) fuses. The pump fuse is 30A.