car design thread | Page 777 | FerrariChat

car design thread

Discussion in 'Creative Arts' started by jm2, Oct 19, 2012.

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  1. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    I started at Art Center with Duane. He graduated a semester or two before I did.
     
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  2. 4CamGT

    4CamGT F1 Rookie

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    Otto Soeding passed away on Tuesday. I knew of Otto Soeding with his Porsche contributions. His signature is on 904 “Typisierung” blueprints. He’s the one we believe laid out the 901/911 5 instrument panel. I got to know him when I was in Detroit. A true gentleman.

    https://www.desmondfuneralhome.com/obituaries/Otto-Hans-Soeding?obId=42376881#/obituaryInfo

    https://carguychronicles.com/corvette-xp-897-gt-amelia-island-concours/

    https://www.excellence-mag.com/issues/304/articles/out-of-the-shadows
     
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  3. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
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    Worked with Otto at GM. Great guy. Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Otto is on the right with Kip Wasenko in the center.
     
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  4. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 World Champ
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    are you on the left?
     
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  5. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
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    No that is Dick Finnigan, GM Brazil/Holden
     
  6. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
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    https://driventowrite.com/2025/05/13/never-a-dull-moment-part-14/#more-127287


    Never A Dull Moment — Part 14

    Aerodynamics and Proportions.

    GM Wind Tunnel. Source: One Man’s Blog


    In 1980, GM opened what was then the world’s largest automotive wind tunnel. It was state of the art and the corporation was committed to improving vehicle aerodynamics with the goal of better fuel economy results. Finally, the art and science of automotive aerodynamics would become a valuable design tool.

    Introduced in 1982, the Audi 5000 (Audi 100/ 200 series in Europe) became a beacon of light as a personal design icon. The flush glass and sleek profile, along with the overall look, were to my eyes, design perfection. Meanwhile in Dearborn, Michigan, the Ford Design Team led by Jack Telnack was embracing the Euro-aerodynamic look as a design/ sales strategy. Their goal was to break away from the North American design vocabulary that was then being used by GM, Ford and Chrysler. I thought the Audi may have been an influence at Ford as well.

    1982 Audi 5000. Source: Curbside Classic


    The 1983 Thunderbird was the first example, followed by the 1984 Lincoln MK VII. A dramatic departure from previous Ford designs, Ford was going all-in on aero as a design philosophy and the aero designs of Ford products were to be the catalyst that would change the course of automotive design in North America forever. Overnight, everything changed in the design studios, and in addition, the Lincoln would be the first car in North America to utilize composite headlamps, suddenly freeing up front-end design solutions.

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    1983 Ford Thunderbird. Source: guideautoweb
    Interestingly, the GM/ Chrysler response to the new Ford designs were mixed at best. The ‘bar of soap’, ‘jellybean’ school of design wasn’t exactly embraced by Ford’s competitors, to put it mildly. While the General Motors wind tunnel was working around the clock, the ‘aero look’ put forth by Ford would meet with some resistance at GM and Chrysler. Design management wasn’t convinced that customers would embrace the soft design vocabulary as shown by Ford; however the 1985 Ford Taurus would go on to prove beyond doubt the public’s acceptance of the aero look. A change in GM Design management later in the decade would ultimately champion the aero look on GM cars.

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    1984 Cadillac Fleetwood Deville. Source: Notacias.coches
    Meanwhile in the Cadillac Studio, we had completed the Cimarron, accepted the Allanté outcome and were getting the newly downsized DeVille FWD cars ready for the market. The 1984 DeVille had aircraft inspired door construction and was distinctive, albeit a major departure from previous large Cadillacs. And to hedge their bets, Cadillac decided to continue selling the older RWD Fleetwood Brougham for those customers so inclined, fuel prices be damned.

    The next products in the queue for revision were the Eldorado/ Seville for 1986. If I thought the previous Cadillacs had been controversial, I hadn’t seen anything yet. With the threat of higher gasoline prices and threats of availability, the corporation decided to double down and really shrink the new Eldo/ Sevilles. Taking 16” out of the previous E/K body cars would prove to be a bad bet, as the cars would be almost identical in size to the GM N bodies — the Pontiac Grand Am, Buick Skylark and Olds Calais. Proportion, proportion, proportion — the designer’s mantra: This was going to become the elephant in the room and of course, fuel prices didn’t increase and follow these prognostications. Armageddon hadn’t happened. So much for that strategy.

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    Pontiac Grand Am. Source: GM Photographic
    The GM N-bodies from 1982.

    As the industry design vocabulary in some segments was making the transition from linear/ square to a softer/ aero execution, GM decided to continue on the existing design path rather than embrace aero completely. GM Design was convinced that aero results could be achieved without the ‘jellybean’ look and were still sceptical that the buying public was ready yet.

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    1977 ‘Full-sized’ Cadillac Eldorado. Source: Automobile-catalog
    The real issue however would be the proportions of the proposed architecture for the Eldo/ Seville. While the new cars would have similar interior volumes to that of their predecessors, the exterior dimensions would prove to be a non-starter for traditional buyers. After all, Cadillacs were known for their generous size. Without that as a differentiator, what did they have? The decision was slated to utilize the ‘formal’ look GM had popularized on previous cars like the original 1976 Seville. However, the N bodies also embraced that same appearance. Lookalike cars anyone?

    This might be a good time to call a timeout and address the elephant in the room. How did those decisions get made? Who made them? Why? How important is/ was design?

    During the 1980’s, automotive design was in a transformative state, to say the least. Downsizing, fuel prices, safety, government regulations, a recession, foreign competition, and on and on and on. Ford upset the design order that had been so successful at GM for so many years. Suddenly GM and Chrysler were marching to a different design drummer and the question was, were the customers ready for such a transformation in design?

    1980 Cadillac Seville. Source: GM Photographic


    The manufacture, building and selling of automobiles is a multibillion dollar enterprise and it’s not for the faint of heart. Decisions made have a drastic downstream effect and can make or bankrupt an enterprise. Jobs are created or lost on the decisions of the buying public. Design had become a strategic tool, beginning with Harley Earl at GM, and it became an integral part of the GM corporate business strategy going forward. Success or failure could ride on design, and as the Edsel and later the Pontiac Aztek would prove, design had a larger influence on success in the marketplace than many would admit to.

    My personal opinion was and continues to be very clear. Automobiles look the way they do because SOMEONE wants them to look that way. Cars don’t fall out of the studio’s ceiling looking the way they do; someone wanted them to look that way. There are no accidents in design execution. Solutions are developed over time by talented, dedicated professionals who are being compensated for their design judgement. Politics can enter into the mix, along with egos and occasionally poor judgement or execution. But the fundamental design is a team effort developed over time to various constraints and compromises. When the team gets it right, all is well with the world and sales follow.

    ‘Right-sized’ Cadillac Eldorado from 1979. Source: GM Photographic

    In this context, we return to GM Design and the design strategy surrounding the ’86 Eldorado/ Seville. In the case of the Seville, the ’86 would replace the ‘Bustleback’ Seville from earlier in the decade and the Eldorado would follow the successfully rightsized ’79 edition. The question of a strategic design direction was developed by the Design Staff, the marketing division, sales, manufacturing, product planning, engineering and a host of additional inputs; but the bulk of the design brief regarding appearance was in the hands of the Design Center.

    Conceptually, where should the design go? How small was too small? Would Cadillac customers embrace the Aero/ Euro look of what Ford was doing? These would prove to be no small decisions and many sleepless nights accompanied where and how to establish a design direction for such important cars in the Cadillac portfolio.

    Ultimately this program would come close to destroying the Cadillac Division and completely alienating it’s customer base. How could so much talent and so many smart individuals get it so wrong?
     
  7. jm2

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  8. Qvb

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  9. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
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    Lookin good!
     
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  11. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
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  12. energy88

    energy88 Three Time F1 World Champ
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  13. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Advising Moderator
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    Are they finding their way back? They're showing they haven't forgotten how to make good looking cars, but then they're limiting production to 50 units here, 70 units there. The mass produced cars still look obnoxious, so the message I'm getting is that they could make cars like this... but unless you're a serious collector with a deep wallet, they won't.

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
  14. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
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    My guess is that this a foreshadowing of coming BMWs. We’ll see.
     
  15. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Advising Moderator
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    If only it did. Take the BMW 8 series... the 2013 BMW Gran Lusso Coupe concept looked amazing. The front looked restrained and dignified, the aero lines across the doors looked crisp, and the whole aesthetic was one of elegance.


    The production 8 Series looks like a steroid using meathead by comparison. The headlights have been pulled back and up like a bad facelift. Gone is any crispness or elegance, it looks overwrought. The feeling of the concept didn't make it into production.


    It's comparatively not a bad production car for the era it's in, but that's more of an indictment on the era than a praise of the BMW bought by customers. But, ok... maybe the idea was always to make the 8 series more aggressive, so perhaps they made the 2015 BMW 7-series more elegant, taking inspiration from the concept...


    Well, maybe that was too soon. The concept might be foreshadowing the next generation of the BMW 7-...


    Oh. Things went really wrong in 2022. So I'm struggling to see where great concepts that struck a chord with me have really translated into BMW's recent production cars.

    BMW used to be my favorite car company in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Since then, they've made tantalizing concepts and now beautiful limited production models for collectors, but the masses aren't able to buy BMW's best design efforts.

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
  16. energy88

    energy88 Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Some very good points, Andrew. At least they slowed down in going this direction: :eek:

     
  17. Schultz

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  18. VigorousZX

    VigorousZX Formula Junior

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    I find the squared Lusso rear better looking then the newly released BMW concept. I suspect the Chinese XPeng X9 only looks as elegant because European oligarchs have a hand in that company and created this to gain Asian market sales where in the western world they have a monopoly over the automobile industry and dont need to output such elegance in their cars.

    XPeng is heavy involved in former colonial asian states and Qatar with VW investing $700 million as of late.
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  19. tritone

    tritone F1 Veteran
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  20. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
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  21. energy88

    energy88 Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Might the way to quantify "clean" design be to count the number of "lines, creases, and angles" on a vehicle? Lesser is cleaner.
     
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  22. NeuroBeaker

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    Nice video explaining the design. :)

    I do agree with him on the interior, buttons are better. My one criticism of my new-to-me Range Rover is that I don't have enough physical buttons and too much of the interface is though touch screens.

    On the exterior, I think BMW nailed it. I like the roofline, if it was curvier in the way he suggests it might make it look a little bloated. The wheels are also great, there's more body volume at the back to offset with a larger wheel and you don't want the front to look like it's wearing clown shoes. Don't change a thing about the exterior.

    Adrian van Hooydonk says some very encouraging things about looking for clean uncomplicated design. I really hope he and BMW follow through with that thought process to the regular production models.

    Here's where BMW hurt me:


    I have some healing to do. :)

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
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  23. VigorousZX

    VigorousZX Formula Junior

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    I have to say the BMW face is ugly. Compare that wagon with the Saab concept.

    video
    https://feber.se/bil/ny-video-pa-emily-som-kombi/460141/
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    They sabotaged koenigsegg and the latest investor from Lebanon from reviving the company with such a beautiful concept and Im betting we will never see it made for the road.

    That Lebanese company is now investing in China to make its cars.
    https://cnevpost.com/2025/05/22/hiphi-resurrects-after-change-boss/

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