360 How much glitter is normal (oil change)

I don't understand (still a newbie and learning, I guess). Ferrari recommends 5W-40 weight for the 360. Your slightly thicker oil will change the oil pressure spec as designed and possibly result in more engine wear.

Why?
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Again, the post was made to encourage anyone who changes their own oil to inspect for flake and report back. (1) It would be nice to know how common it is to find flake at the bottom of the pan during normal intervals; (2) It is encouraging to everyone to know that this could be normal, as when someone sees it for the first time, they are told by the internet that your car is toast.

Once I found how common this was, it was in total contrast to what I found online, and hearing the same from techs, who simply drain the oil into a metal tub and never actually inspect it.

 

Not at all accurate. Ferrari recommends the 15w50 now for hotter climates and 10w-60 for track. I talked to Ferrari NA rep about this when I was rebuilding the F136 and trying to iron out the hydraulic failures that were common with the variators.

 

5w-40 is the best "catch all" recommended oil for all climates. This is why I would never recommend the 10w-15w for anyone driving in colder climates, for obvious reasons.

I personally use the 15W50 from Mobile one due to the higher bulk modulus, not because the oil viscosity. It seems to operate the VVT system better than the 5w-40 and 10w-60 from various brands. This is from my own testing a few years back.

 

Similar here. I change my oil every Nov before putting both this and the Porsche for hibernation.
Never seen any metal particles worth nothing. Never found any in the Suction Fan either.
I always use the Ferrari recommended spec 5W-40

My process is to pour the dirty oil from the drain pan into a 16 liter glass jar and keep it there until the next day (allow dirty oil to drain out overnight).
Then, after the fresh oil is added I then transfer the dirty oil from the glass jar to the store bought empty oil container. I've never seen any metal particles at the bottom of the glass jar to cause me any concern..... so far. I hope I'm not jinxing myself.

 

Interesting. How much do you drive?

I change my oil monthly because I am currently driving about 40K miles per year - 3K miles per month. Also, my 360 has about 80K miles on it.

 

Wow, that's a decent amount of miles. Please don't tell me you're doing Uber Eats in your 360?

 

I accidentally skipped an interval on my Cayenne! Normally 5k miles and this one was 10k. So I sent it to Blackstone and it actually came back better than the 5k sample I last sent in(Mobil-1 10w-40 European blend)!! I don't send every one in. The BMW club tech expert always said based on his analysis results, he was comfortable with 10k miles. I think you would also be good 5-6k too (in my opinion).

 

Hahaha! No, I just drive it out if town 3 times per week for pleasure. Plus I drive it every day unless it's terrible weather. Weekends compile about 500 miles each, unless the weather turns bad. Basically, if it's a clear night - the Capristo-equipped 360 is out making noise!

 

UPDATE:

I talked to my friend, again, in NJ with the 03 360 and asked again about the discovery of flakes in his oil. The Tech at the dealership assured him that it's normal on any driver's Ferrari - he sees it all the time and he sees it at every oil service.

I still can't understand this and I don't like it. Although unlikely, it is entirely possible that the 15w-50 oil I have been using works great on the F430 motor but the 360 has totally different bearing clearances, etc., and it may accelerate the wear based on different architecture. Remember, I switched to this while I was working on a F136 which has completely different VVT system. I stuck with the oil but I decided to switch back to the 5w40 today, just in case.

So, on my lunch break, I replaced the oil with the 5w40. I will run this for the next few thousand miles and compare. If the flakes go away, it may be a good idea to stick with this recommended weight, at least for the 360. Either way, I will report back.

 

I agree that 10K is typically fine with modern synthetics. I know at 3K, my oil is slightly darker but still has consistency like new oil. I generally change my oil often but I change the filter every 5K to 6K. Every other oil change. The oil change literally takes me 10 min so I do it just to satisfy my OCD, however an argument could be made that the dry start after an oil change will lead to more damage than leaving in the old oil. This is a reason for the "dry start procedure" in the Aston Martin - they tell you to hold the gas pedal down while starting for 5 seconds, which disables the fuel supply and spark, but allows the oil pump to move the oil. Then start as normal.

 

If you like your car you should use the weight of oil recommended by Ferrari. The rods ride on crank with bearings. The oil film viscosity range, oil pressure, bearing clearances, operational range minimize metal to metal contact for longevity. There is only 2 reasons to change oil weights outside recs if you have rebuilt the motor outside factory clearances and your builder knows how to account for that or if you are outside the operational range. For example , my racecar has a streetcar engine that specs out 5-30W. In race trim the motor runs hotter. Looking at the temp vs. viscosity curve and to get the same oil viscosity at the higher temp I'll use a 15-50.

 

I do agree with you 100%. Just understand that Ferrari NA told me that "Ferrari now recommends 15w50 in warmer climates," so this is why I included it in my studies a few years ago. The jury is out on whether or not this applies in the F131 engine as I was working on the F136 at the time, which according to the manuals, also calls for 5w40.

Being that my friend with 03 has the same issue with the flakes, and he uses Shell Helix 5w40, it's unlikely that changing back to that will change anything. But, I'm willing to try. Nor an I sure that there aren't any wear items internally that could naturally shed flakes.

For example, I don't know it you've removed the variator bushings in a F430, but wow! Those brass bushings are about 2 inches long and over time DEEP trenches get carved into them as the cam spins. Like 1/16-1/8 of an inch deep. That all sheds brass material into the oil over time. I'm not as familiar with the 360, but it could be coming from somewhere else. I'm hoping the oil switch slows it down - we'll see.

 

Same sort of thing happens on the bearing caps that hold down the cams / exhaust variators on the 360 too. I just replaced all 8 bearings (2 per cam, 1 upper & 1 lower) of them at 19K on my 2000 360 and the edges of the bearings on both sides of the engine were down to the copper. Some of the bearings had wear closer to the center having more copper visible. Definitely found some glitter/metal in the oil. Pulled the oil pan and checked to make sure nothing else was sitting around in there and the gearbox oil suction filter and really didn't find anything. Didn't go as far as checking rod/crank bearings but... i think based on what i saw with the cam cap bearings were the culprint being as worn as they were for the mileage.

 

Why are you messing around with what the Mothership spec'd out for us in all their years of testing? Please provide the bulletin that says we should be using a different spec oil in warmer climates and it is of course expected that the temperature is included in the document. I have not seen this so I am curious.

 

If i remember correctly 5W40 or 10W60 are recommended, the latter for track use.

Based on this, I can see why Mobil 1 FS 0W40 or 5W50 would be reasonable choices, I honestly do not see the point of 15W50 ...

What is 15W50 supposed to achieve, that 5W50 or 10W60 wouldn't do better?


Could it be that your tech tells you exactly what you want to hear, so that you leave him alone?

 

I have been changing oil on my Ferraris for over 40 years and never noticed obvious glitter in the drain pan. On the other hand, I never went out of my way to look for it.

 

I resemble this remark!

 

Because in my kind of racing you don't need the 0 or5w low temp protection and second we run no cats so can run the typical find it anywhere 15-50 synthetic diesel oil with more ZDDP, a wear additive that's not good for passenger car cats. The diesel oil is way cheaper to run too. Three great reasons! Car guys can run by the way a diesel oil if it is SN rated aka multi-fleet and it's cheaper. Shell Rotella® Multi-Vehicle 5W-30 is an example that fits the temp range of many passenger car motors.

 

1. I am my tech. And condescending remarks are not appropriate on any forum, especially one focused on sharing ideas between like-minded Ferrari owners.

2. This came from Ferrari NA rep, not a tech.

3. This was during my quest to find out why certain engines were experiencing bilateral failure of the helical variators. Honestly, I traced it back to the accumulator what was contributing to the wear. On that note, people and techs alike don't realize that the accumulator seals fail prematurely on the top side, reducing the pressure available to supply oil to the variators on startup, causing wear on the variator components. This is why they always fail bilaterally.

During this time, I spoke to both Ferrari NA and the manufacturer of the accumulators, which is where I got this information.

I am not professing to know what oil is best for the Ferrari 360. All I am saying is that 15w50 was not only a recommended oil, but it reduced the startup rattle significantly when I tested the oil on a car with failing variators. Since then, I've used this with success. This may or may not have any bearing on my issue, but I wanted to share it with a community of like 360 owners to get their take on their own cars.

Now I'm sure you see why I prefaced this thread with saying I am not here for debate with what people think is right. My only intentions were to:
1. find out who else has experienced this and to what degree
2. inform other 360 owners that dealers have seen this before and told (my friend) that he should not be alarmed

 

Fair points and demonstrates how application can make a lot of difference. In the type of racing I was involved in, teams would typically choose the least viscous oil they could get away with. There were some other parameters that were of interest as well, but this is even further from a road car application (which I initially tried to refer to).

 

Sure! The higher you climb in racing the more risk you take. Even in the amateurs the top guys are taking the most risk and spending the most money. For a time there were spec miatas worth $50k and $20-30K stock engines massaged to the absolute limit of the rules and rebuilt annually! About 10 years back the top 6 spec miatas at SCCA Runoffs were DQ'ed because of pushing the head building rules to the Nth degree and tech said it was illegal. So #7 with a normal car was crowned the National Champion. I raced in a different class that year and the paddock was a buzz with the scandal.
https://www.motorsport.com/scca/news/top-six-finishing-miatas-at-scca-runoffs-found-to-be-illegal-seventh-place-awarded-title/457557/

 

Not sure what anyone can offer here.

 

As for the engine oil, I use Mobil 1 15w-50.