Can Ferrari survive without winning F1?

Good evening to all.

Lately I thought for a moment of trading my Ferraris for a Gallardo, and… I realised there was something wrong. Something that was puzzling me.

I guessed there was something deeper than performance, because for me the Ferrari brand had always been the one and only, and because any trading hypothesis regarded just a 360/F430/458/550/TR.

So I started to understand the underlying question, especially after I purchased my 4th Ferrari, a Dino 208 GT4 that now sits next to the 328 GTS.

Would I love Ferrari the same if they never raced?
Surely not.

And so, how long will Ferrari manage to be so desired and aspirational without winning any F1 title?

I asked myself this because I realised that after you own your first Ferrari for a while, not to mention after you buy more than one, you basically satisfied your desire for ownership and belonging to the brand.
But then what is keeping you attached, if not continuing success?
Today a nice Roma Spyder passed by. Nice car. But when they started to design it the last F1 title was already a B&W memory: where’s the true difference with a similar car of another luxury brand?
Why someone is buying a new Ferrari today? Because of the glories of the past or on some speculative glories of the future?

Some current Ferraris are nice, but what does the brand today stand for?
And what will it stand for in 10 or 20 years if it will not regain F1 dominance?
In 2047 can a 40 something really desire a Ferrari if he hasn’t ever seen the pranching horse win anything during his entire life?
Can Ferrari really become like… Alfa Romeo?

Ciao.
Nic

 

Did you look at the period between 1979 and 2000 in the WDC, or 1983 to 1999 in WCC?

There's been multiple decade-long gaps in the history. Hasn't mattered so far.

 

I may be wrong, but this time I sense a lack of commitment, passion and competence.
Luca brought Ferrari back to dominance because he had experience and was free to do anything he wanted.
Today I don’t see the possibility of another company leader focussed on sports results more than the next financial quarter, with all the constraints it means in F1 R&D investments.
Bye.
Nic

 

Um, they paid Hamilton $87 million in hopes of winning with a 7 time world champion. If that's not commitment, I'm not sure what is. Now competence is an entirely different subject.

 

Yes

 

Now INcompetence is an entirely different subject.

 

Yes because no one cares about f1, Ferraris are sexy so sell based on this

 

Well at this point the best manufacturer is McLaren but I am certainly not running out to buy one of those

 

Let's not forget WEC and back to back LeMans wins. After all, Ferrari made it reputation in sports car racing.

 

The 16M was made to celebrate Ferrari's last World Championship.

That car was model year 2009.

I'm thinking they have done just fine since then.

I think F1 needs Ferrari more than Ferrari needs F1. But racing certainly keeps their marque alive and relevant.

 

Luca I think had several things he wanted to do. Remember he was with the F1 team before he became head of Ferrari. So he saw the value of F1 as marketing more than racing.

I think he wanted the existing brand to be more of a luxury brand. Something that you want just because you want it. And that involved styling, better performance, stronger visual and mechanical clues to racing, and personalization (for a price. Luxury brands also demand higher quality and he felt the existing models needed better engineering and reliability.

To counteract "mass production" some very special low production models were created only for the best customers to stay onboard. He increased production but more importantly increased DEMAND, which restricted the number of cars allocated to each market. This kept resale values high, so wealthy people didn't mind overspending for this "luxury". F1 kept Ferrari in touch with its historic roots. Something Lamborghini never had.

He also revised Maserati as a sub brand to give dealers something else to sell while restricting new car sales that stretched out for years.

His goal was to increase production and profits per vehicle. F1 was a marketing tool so he poured effort into the team. It was certainly cheaper than advertising because it was paid for by advertising and F1.

Many objected to his methods but it worked. Ferrari of today is not the same as the Ferrari of 1989 -- for better or worse. But I have to say, if he didn't do these things and McLaren entered the market as they did, would Ferrari still be the car everyone wants today? I really doubt as much.

 

Lamborghini now has 60+ years of roots around its own brand and does not need the racing publicity.

McLaren desperately needs brand identity for its street cars and the F1 success will help that.

 

I agree. My point is when Luca sat around and wondered what he could do to enrich the Ferrari brand, racing was one of them because of its long history in F1. It gave him something unique -- until McLaren showed up with the 12C 10 years later.

Racing also made a direct connection to Enzo himself, which helped the brand bridge from his era to a modern one.

 

just like "there will always be an England"

there will also be "Ferrari" !

 

Well, a F1 title would be nice one of these years, However, Ferrari has been doing well these past couple years in WEC races. One could argue those cars bear a closer resemblence to street cars than F1 cars.

 

Great post—I've had the same thought myself. Ferrari’s whole brand DNA is rooted in racing, so in the classic chicken-or-egg question, F1 clearly came first. That’s what built the myth. Today, the brand is so embedded in pop culture that things like the clothing line, watches, theme parks, and toys have become standalone emblems. Whether F1 wins or not doesn’t move the needle on those—at least not directly.

That said, fashion is fickle. Relevance comes and goes. What does stick, especially in a commoditized performance landscape where speed is no longer special, is perceived authenticity. And that still starts at the track. Anyone can buy a car that outruns a Ferrari in a straight line now—hell, half of them can sound like anything you want as well. Yeah, it’s fake—but hey, resonators and sound ducts are still technically “authentic,” right? Let’s be real though: it’s straight pipes or bust. Just do yourself a favor and keep a CO sensor handy, my dude. (ask my doctor how I know.)

But what Ferrari sells isn’t just speed, it’s provenance. That’s why F1 still matters.

So yeah, I think you're right to draw the parallel: if Jordan never won, would the sneakers still be legendary? Probably not.

One last thing to chew on—Ferrari’s not exactly dragging at the back of the grid. Sure, they’ve been the perpetual bridesmaid the last 20 years, but let’s not forget they were just a few points off the top last season and are sitting P2 right now. It’s not winning the World Series, but consistently getting there? That still means something.

 

Would the NY Yankees be as popular as they are today if they didn't have the history of winning so many World Series and having so many of the great historic players? Babe Ruth. Lou Gehrig. Mickey Mantel. Joe Dimaggio, etc.

I don't think so. I think the history of winning in sports helps with the brand desirability. That goes for Ferrari as well.

And I think its also why Mercedes decided to jump back into F1 also after banning racing so many years. They also have a great racing heritage with great historic drivers.

Racing in F1 means something to the brand. You still need a good product but if you put the two together, you maximize the value.

 

i think ferrari has definitely lost its way lately. but they dont care. they are run by a tech guy who had never even sat in a ferrari before being ceo. he is not a car guy. there is no passion running through his veins or heart. he is on record saying ferrari is a luxury goods company. ie not a car company. these days they do seem to cater to the lvmh demographic. but they dont seem to be harmed by this attitude - yet.
the models are sold out before the first ones are even delivered. so what do they care if car guys are dismissive of haptic buttons, when the wealthy are buying roma's for their mistreeses?

the counterpoint to this at this moment is mclaren. i am a car guy. i think mclaren makes cars for car guys now. i want a mclaren. i wish their build quality was a little better but i lived through decades of **** italian build quality so this is nothing new. IF mclaren wins the wc and the wdc this year.....they will get a huge boost with the car guy world. much more so than the ferrari challengers of years past.

redbull doesnt make a car...so those wdc didnt matter to car guy buying desires.
mercedes makes plenty of cars, but almost all of them are pedestrian transportation and not heart thumping performance cars (they do make some but it is a small percentage of their overall production).

but mclaren ONLY makes performance cars for enthusiasts, and therefore are a legitimate threat to Ferrari, and i think it might dent Ferrari's rep a bit. they will still sell all their cars....but they may just not be as revered by car guys...whether they care about that or not, is unknown.

 

We used to hate Luca. Now we miss him.

As to McLaren I have 2 comments

1) they all look alike to me. Too many models which makes resale values TANK
2) they are really really complicated. You can say that's exotic engineering but working on them is nuts. These are going to be very expensive after warranty which is also why resale values TANK.

I see a theme here....

 

McLarens are badass machines, no question. Ferrari—like any brand—is only as good as its last release. Snooze, and you're toast.

Lando and Piastri are wiping the track with the horse.

I love it. This is exactly how it's supposed to work. Capitalism. Competition.

We’re the ones who win in the end.

 

Your comment makes me think:
1.You have not driven a McLaren or have not driven a McLaren lately.
2. Claiming they all look alike ignores the perpetual 911 and denying the repetitive shapes derivative from that; the repetition of the shapes of the 458,488,speciale, pista, f8, sf90 etc. McLaren shapes are as different from one another as any of those lines I just mentioned so you are just being visually lazy.
3. values decline as they are supposed to. Do you remember when that used to be the norm for all Ferraris too? Plenty of Ferraris drop big time- ask any of those obliged to buy sf90’s or 296’s how happy they are now …..
4 read the many posts about temperamental sf90 and 296’s that just stop working and have to be hauled off to the dealer for a reset.
5 have you priced ferrari service lately?!? Eye watering. AND you cannot get parts easily for anything older than a 458!!!! McLaren has no issue selling you parts

 

Frankly the very best value for money right now in supercar world in my opinion is a 2020 or younger 720s. Beats almost anything out there and costs about $200k today.
And the biggest bargain is the McLaren GT.

my guess is McLaren starts to do very very well going forward.

 

They have previously refused to sell parts to indy mechanics which held the brand back in a big way....I have not heard if this has changed recently.

And on another point, EVERYTHING looks like a variant of the same car these days, all the exotic car companies use the same design language which is frustrating.

On McLaren in particular, a bigger issue is using the same engine and turbo setup on everything and just increasing the boost from one model to the next.

 

get this, the indy shop who does all my ferraris in Houston, is ALSO the place Mclaren sends off warranty cars for repair ! so he gets whatever parts he wants fwiw.

all the car companies stay on a design track because the cad spit that out, and they want to consistently distinguish their cars from other brands. it does not bother me too much anymore.

and mclaren does not deviate much from what other manufacturers do - the engines in all of the 8 cylinder ferraris was more/less the same for nearly 20 years. the v12 has been an evolution of the same engine since the 599. and the advantage at mclaren is that you have common parts at least so getting parts is not as difficult as it could be.

i think a lot of these arguments AGAINST mclaren are hypocritical, and/or not valid in reality.

i am a ferrari guy - my bona fides are well documented.

but i do recognize that mclaren is a true competitor and is competing very directly for ferrari customers and is appealing to the real drivers and real car guys.
and i am not the only one recognizing this - look at review videos from the big names in that business and listen to their comparisons of ferrari vs lambo vs mclarens, and a lot of the time they favor the mclaren offerings lately.

 

Don't get me wrong, I was at McLaren Houston 3 weeks ago talking about a 750S order....so I appreciate what they are doing. My biggest issue from that visit was how hard it was to get in and out