Ferrari monoposto thread

I’m even more confused now. I thought the Perfetti 375 F1 was N.2 and the Gonzalez 1951 British GP winner.

There seems to be much confusion re the premium monopostos from this period including people referring to the Gonzales 375 F1 as the first Ferrari to win a Formula 1 race which is incorrect. Ferrari had won Formula 1 races before this, but not Formula 1 Championship races.

 

I recommend to close this entire thread because of so much incorrect information. Simple speculation without period paper documentation is absolutely useless and a complete waste of time. Not serious at all.
Then start several individual new threads for each decade, as somebody else suggested.
My 2 cents.

Marcel Massini

 

Oh, you've put a bit of a downer on proceedings
Maybe, you could illustrate where some of this information is incorrect. I agree, there is a fair bit of speculation about some things, particularly regarding the origins of the 375 Indy cars. But, I think, I have an accurate record of the race appearances of the 375s in 1950 and 1951. This is based on the photographic record, which I think is relevant, regarding the history of these cars.
I would guess that only the Ferrari archive has any relevant period documentation regarding this period. Maybe, you could encourage them to be a bit more forthcoming.
Cheers, Allan

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From my experience of collaborating with Allan Morris over almost three years, sometimes daily, I can only say that he is correct.

 

Jose-Froilan Gonzalez' World Championship winner of the 1951 British Grand Prix was built in 1950. What I refer to as GP/375-2. It only ever ran a 12-plug engine and was used as the team's "Muletto" (Practice car), for much of the 1951 season, as well as being Ascari's winning car at the German Grand Prix. Previously, it did have a race history, detailed in my book.
Georgio Perfetti's No. 2 is a car that was built in 1951, the sixth Tipo 375 F1 built.

 

So has the Perfetti 375 F1 has been renumbered from N.6 to N.2? This car has a 24 plug engine.

 

Yes. The first "No.2" of 1950 only ever ran a 12-plug engine, whilst the "No.2" of 1951 started life with a 24-plug engine. As well, the "No 2" of 1951 appeared at the 1951 Italian Grand Prix with what came to be called: "Camelli" bodywork. I have seen a photo of the 1950 No.2 at the 1951 Italian GP, when Chico Landi drove it. It is definitely NOT carrying "Camelli" type bodywork. Period photographs tell the story.

 

Was the N.2 of 1951 ever numbered, or was it initially physically numbered N.6?

 

I'm quoting from a post Doug Nye wrote on Autosport's Nostalgia forum, 25 February 2024.

"There's another joker in the pack here, instilled by the AC Milano's perennial offer of bonus money to any Italian constructor introducing "a new design car" at their Italian Grand Prix. I believe I am correct in recalling that Ferrari took the money in 1951 for the high-tailed camelli 375 variants - introduced there and in consequence probably stamped as "1" and "2".

The single-plug muletto was plainly identified as No2 at the time of the British GP, and was then preferred by Ascari for his use in the following German GP. BUT by the end of that season Ferrari had two No 2s in their armoury. the year-old muletto and, from Monza, the new series camelli."

Maybe Mr Nye has period documentation. Or maybe not but, I assume, he knows what he is talking about.

Cheers, Allan

 

The Perfetti Ferrari 375 in a previous life. Auckland, NZ 1989. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

So @ajmorris and @Writer Christian Huet knows what he is talking about too, admittedly 30 years ago but facts he may have stated then do not change over time, and he has stated that the Perfetti car, 375 F1 N.2 won 2 non championship races in 1951 as well as 2 championship races, the British GP and the German GP. Again according to Huet 375 F1 N.2 entered races in 1952 when it won the GP D'Albi which it won again in 1953. Among other races it entered it won the GP De Bougie in 1956.

 

Yes, Huet's results are correct for 375/50-2 up until the end of 1951. The results from 1952 onwards apply to the car that Villoresi debuted at the 1951 Italian GP and was then sold to Rosier in 1952.
In the Cavelleria book's text Rancati writes that 375/50-2 bodywork was replaced with new 'camelli' bodywork and the single-plug engine replaced with twin-plug engine No6 before being sold to Rosier. This did not happen.
I've attached a photo of Villoresi at the 1951 Spanish GP and one of Rosier at the 1952 Albi GP. Same car? Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I'm trying to chase down the history of chassis number 0482, the Ferrari fitted with a Corvette engine that Jose Froilan Gonzalez drove in South America from January 1957 into the early 1960s. I have run into a problem with it's history... According to Barchetta.cc, the car, which had been Tipo 500 No. 3 in 1952 and chassis number 2 in 1953, was later on sold/leased to Peter Whitehead, who took it down to Australia and took part in the following races:

1956/nov/25

6th

Australian TT,

Albert Park

Whitehead

1957/jan/26

1st

Lady Wigram Trophy

Whitehead

#3

1957/feb/16

1st

Southland Road Race

Whitehead

The problem is that Gonzalez started racing the modified No. 0482 on 27th January, 1957 in Argentina! Can anyone explain this anomaly please?

 

Don’t believe all you read on Barchetta.cc
Nathan

 

Agreed BUT I checked the dates of Whitehead's races in Australia, and Gonzalez first appearances with 0482 in South America. They all check out, so either Whitehead's car Wasn't 0482, or Gonzalez' car wasn't Can't be both.

 

Ferrari built up two cars in 1955 out of now unused 500/625F1 chassis and fitted them with 750 Monza engines #0480 and #0482, for sale to Peter Whitehead, one soon sold to NZ car dealer Tony Gaze. These cars had great racing histories in New Zealand and Australia...... and remained down under until the late 1960s. #0480 later passed to Tom Wheatcroft who found it was originally #500-5, Ascari's very successful '52/53 F1 car and was sold some years ago, recently raced by William L'Anson for its British owner. #0482 is also believed to be in the UK, although which #0482 is open for question.

See
https://primotipo.com/tag/ferrari-625-0480/
https://jimbarclay.nz/wp-content/uploads/NZFMR2014-Page-12and13-Ferraris-that-raced-in-NZ.pdf

It would appear that in '57 Froilan Gonzales was looking for a car to race in Argentina and Ferrari agreed to build up a 500/625 based special. Having paid for the carnet on #0482, it was simple to use that stamp on it. This car soon received a Chev V8 motor for the Carrera Meccanica series and raced until the mid 1960s, at least. This chassis was found by Crabbe I believe and sold to US collector royalty, Bob Sutherland, who received the chassis of #0482 and supposedly enough parts to restore it and build another 500/625 based car. This too exists in the UK today AFAIK.

See
https://forums.autosport.com/topic/48154-gonzalez-and-his-ferrari-chev-merged/

One could also note #0540 and #0712 were also built out of 500/625 chassis in '56/57

 

This is what I have as a more complete list of races for 0480(005) and 0482(003)


0480(005) with Gaze, Davison, Green etc.

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0482(003) with Whitehead

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Peter Whitehead had many cars, none ever sold back to the factory, yet #0482 never reappeared as far as I can tell, either down under or in the UK. Nobody in NZ or Australia would have spent that much money not to race #0482. So if it returned to the UK with him, which in itself is out of character, what did he do with it. I still believe the #0482 Gonzales had Ferrari build was a new car built using an old chassis but what happened to #0482, nobody seems to know. Whitehead and his brother were killed at the '58 Tour de France and perhaps took that secret to the grave!

 

I read somewhere that it went back to the factory, maybe in part exchange for the 555 supersqualo.

 

Interestingly, three Ferrari-Chev were racing in South America in the 1960s and we only know of the Gonzales car which should have been built before the Whitehead 625F1 was returned to Ferrari.......Maybe one was a rebuilt 375F1 but surely at least another was floating around, likely 500/625 based

 

There is an interesting thread on Nostalgia Forum in the historical McKinney section, titled 'Gonzalez and his Ferrari-Chev'. Has some good information.

 

Graham Whitehead survived the '58 Tour de France with serious injuries but brother Peter died.

 

It seems that Whitehead traded in 500/3, which became 0482 in late 1955/early 1956 for a Tipo 555 Super Squalo, so time wise, 0482 going to Gonzalez AFTER Whitehead's ownership works.

 

Very interesting. Many historians have noted how Peter Whitehead would find the best F1 car available at the end of each season, often unloved Ferraris, and take them to NZ and Australia where he would get sufficient starting money, enough to pay for the jaunt, and then sell whatever he raced locally and make a small profit. Rinse and repeat each year. The influx of relatively cheap Maserati 250Fs and then the game changing Cooper T41/43s in the latter 1950s meant the end of that plan since few wanted a 3 year old Ferrari when they could get a quicker car, cheaper. Peter and Graham were great Aston Martin stalwarts and must have been relatively talented, taking second at Le Mans in '58......

 

Maybe it does, I had my doubts but would be happy to be proved wrong........

If we know

#500-3 became #0482
#500-5 became #0480
#625-7 became #0712

Does anyone have any thoughts about #500-1, 500-2, 500-4 and lets call it 625-6?

Also what were 625-6 and 625-7 and #54/1, that appeared in '54, new cars or 500F2 rebuilt?

Alan Henry says Ferrari kept six 500F2 chassis for racing in '54, makes zero note whether any were new or were simply '53 chassis carried over......