Rubber part fallen into gearbox

Hi everyone,

While refilling my 360 gearbox with 75W90 and a 500mL syringe, I thought a rubber plug was securely fitted at the tip of the teflon hose. Turns out it was not and it fell inside the transmission. I sucked up as much transmission fluid as I could and tied to suck up the rubber piece with a vacuum, but it is not working.
Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login


My next step will be to get a flexible claw pick-up tool (like the Draper 39669),

Image Unavailable, Please Login



but if I fail to recover the culprit, what would you consider?

Would unbolting the gearbox rearcover (part 173612) allow to access the bottom of the gearbox? Based on this video of a team fixing a F430 gearbox, looks like the guy can go fairly deep inside the gearbox recover things that have broken down at the bottom of it.
If that is an option, would you know:
- if sealant is needed to re-assamble the cover (the guys don't use any in the video, surprising)
- what torque should be used for the bolts?


Image Unavailable, Please Login

Thanks much for your help and any idea you could have that I haven't thought about.

G

 

How about going thru the screen filter hole and thru "fill" hole ( or drain) both at same time - like two hands ( like laparoscopic procedure)

 

Unfortunately unreachable by fingers :-(

Looks like there is a plug at the top of the gearbox but fear the gears are in the say as the rubber piece is now kind of under one of the gear so without direct eye of sight to that hole at the top.

Maybe removing the left catalytic converter could be a way to go though once I receive my mini gabber.

For sure that will be a lesson learnt

 

I wasn't actually saying use your hands it was like a combination of two different tools on both sides to grab it and move it to where you can grab it with some dirt tool

Or use a vacuum hose in one hole and something flexible to push it thru the other

 

Are those first two images actual pictures of the rubber piece inside your gearbox? If so, you can use an inspection mirror and that claw tool together. You’ll need a third hand to hold the mirror while you manipulate the claw tool with two hands. IIRC you’ll need to bend that claw tool fairly sharp to get it in the fill hole.

No damage has been done so far. Make sure the claw tool is clean and won’t fall apart when you put it in the fill hole.

 

If you can see it by eye I would make a sharp hook and stab it and haul it out. The claw may well work too.

 

the grabber should get it. get two grabbers if more than 1 can fit through the opening .

 

9k RPM for 1 min. Problem solved.

 

Thanks guys, your words are comforting and indeed I ordered 2 claws. Also like the hook idea which I may try if the claws system fails.

Love the 9000 rpm idea, really thought doing it after 2h of failing to recover that thing.

Ultimately I think that removing the rear cover will be the ultimate solution if everything fails.

 

FYI - you can not access the transmission from the driver’s side. I have posted pictures of that.

 

Thanks @67bmer, but my idea (if the claw fails) was to remove the gearbox cover at the rear, i.e. the part before the pressure plate, and on the right hand side, at the bottom, there is a small opening that allows to grab what would have fallen at the bottom. If my plug is too high to go under the gear under which it is, then I was planning (from the filler hole) to push it towards the rear where the gears are smaller, and then be able to grab it from the rear/bottom/right as the guy in the video is able to recover broken gear parts that fell at the bottom of the gearbox.

 

Unfortunately removing the catalytic converter to direct access to the plug, and using a BGS miniretractable claw did not lead to being to get the rubber piece out. It always came at the wrong angle so too wide for the filler hole opening.

Next step: Removing the rear gearbox cover.
- Have bought some Loctite 518 sealant to seal cover back.

Question for you (as not provided in the workshop manual would you know the torque values of the bolts securing the gearbox cover to the sandwitch plates (talking about long Screws #16297424 and shorter screws #16288221)?

Thanks much for your help. If you have a workshop manual for a 430, maybe the torque values are speicified there.

 

I think this is what you are looking for
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Thanks much @flash32 , 24-30 Nm it is then, and clearly the O-rings seem to need to be replaced. Woul you happen to have the next screen explaining what the "Shoulder ring seat (50)" is by any chance.

Also good that I now see I need loctite 270 (just ordered) ;o)

 

Here you go
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Thanks much @flash32 , also helps me better understand that the sandwitch plate has no real risk of falling off when I remove the rear cover since the retainer plate should prevent any movement.

Also, not sure what is your workshop manual, but clearly much better than the one must of us use here (with Torque levels of 70Nm for an M6 bolt LOL)

 

Ferrari manual - but that being said not always right e.g. drain plug for engine oil

 

Hi @flash32 , I am starting to get ready to remove my rear cover (trying to do it as a professional, buying all the official material like Loctite 7200 to remove anaerobic gaskets, plastic blades to avoid damaging the machined surface, ordered the proper Locttite 518 sealant, ordered the proper Loctite 270 thread locker etc. A bit paranoid about messing it up.

I was wondering whether you (@flash32 ) would also have the steps showed in the Ferrari Manual to remove the rear cover safely without damaging the seal between the sandwich plate and the main body of the gearbox? I am a bit worried that if I start hammering the side of the rear cover (with a rubber hammer), this may also damage the seal between the sandwich plate and the main body of the gearbox (since I have no need or desire to remove it) and I would hate to have to remove the entire gearing system to have to reseals 2 surfaces rather than just one.

Thanks much for your help.

 

Is this what you are looking for .. sorry for the delay .. if you want quicker turnaround PM me in the future
Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Thanks much @flash32, not sure I have the same "two nuts fastening the intermediate housing" on the 360 vs the pictures for the 430 here, but looks like that using a rubber mallet on the top of the casing seems to work.

I guess the "intermediate housing" is also held in place by the cir-clips holding the gear shafts, so hopefully tapping with a mallet will be enough to unseal the rear cover without pulling too hard on these cir-clips.

 

Hi everyone, since after 7h of hard work and quite some help from @flash32, I managed to get the rubber part out and reseal (big word, testing tomorrow) the gearbox, I thought I would post here an update as well as a few advices.

Big issue is that the seal between the rear cover and the intermediate plate is CRAZY tight. So once you have removed the 12 bolts and start hammering with a rubber mallet, NOTHING happens. I haven't removed the exhaust so this did not really help, but after what I had to do to get the rear cover unstuck from the interplate, pretty sure this would not have changed antything.

Basically when I started pulling the rear cover out by any means I could find, the only thing it did is break the seal between the interplate and the main cover of the gearbox => i.e. the seal I did not want to break as I had no intention of removing the inter-plate as this would mean having to dismantle the differential and detach the gearing shafts from the differential to be able to remove the interplate.

Image Unavailable, Please Login


So after a while of frustration, I decided to create a TOOL!!!! A tool to push the black rear cover away from the interplate and hopefully break the seal that has been there undisturbed for 24 years.
The tool I am talking about is a 3mm thick steel plate with a 9mm hole at its base that I placed against the bracket that is screwed to the rear black cover and holds the exhaust transversal bar. Through the 9mm hole I inserted a 8mm rod cut at the proper length, with 2 nuts at one end (so I could screw them without them moving on the rod) and on the other side of the 3mm thick steel plate, a washer and a M8 nut. The end of the 8mm rod bar tilted slightly down and pushing against one of the recesses of the interplate.

Image Unavailable, Please Login


Image Unavailable, Please Login


Once this in place and making sure that the rod was not lifting up out of the recess in the interplate, I screwed and screwed and screwed.... almsot gave up as think I screwed to at least 50Nm and nothing was coming. I was reallyscared of cracking the interplate, but then halleluhiah, the black rear cover broke apart from the interplate. And once this done I managed to use a plastic spatula to go around the seal and gently break it loose.


Leading to this Magnificent view!!!
Image Unavailable, Please Login


And here I could see my lonely piece of rubber, patiently waiting for me to pick it up:

Image Unavailable, Please Login


Taking it out was still a pain in the rear pan as it roll down to the back of the pan from where it was impossible to take it out with the articulated claw. I still managed with a borescope to see that it was leaning against the drain plug, so decided to remove the drain plug, remove the mesh filter. and with my fingers, pushed it away from the drain hole, it fell into a circular groove where the mesh filter is, and from there I managed to use my articulated claw to extract the rubber piece through the mesh filter hole. This part was mega easy since the rubber plug was totally aligned with the mesh filter housing.

Image Unavailable, Please Login


Gearbox rebuilding:
Then I had to rebuild the gearbox and this meant removing the old sealant. The plastic blades I bought were simply not good and what I found worked best was a mix of Loctite 2700 sealamnt remover (recommended for anaerobic sealants) and Triple 0 steel wool. This worked wonder even though you need to be very carefull and make sure you collect all the wool particules out of the elements once done.

Then a good cleaning of all surfaces with Acetone.
And then the magical Loctite 518 sealant. With 25g you can easily do 3 or 4 of these pans. Please do not be too hard on me for the beads as this is the first time ever I use sealant (let alone opening up, even partially, a gearbox).

Image Unavailable, Please Login


Another pain in the .... you need to be careful about is the oil feeder that is circled in red in the above picture. (1) it has to be kept in place in the black rear cover during reinstallement (2) the extruding part on the top right needs to be positioned between the 2 black pins on each side on the picture. Unlike for the 420, there does not seem to be a side as both sides of this part of a recess, so irrespective if you flip the part over, you will still have this oil feeding recess facing you and in the same direction.
The main issue is that except the 2 black pins, nothing else holds this weird washer in place. So if you try to position the rear cover vertically, it will fall. So you need to use grease to keep it in place and start by inserting the gear shaft through that hole first and then fit the remaining of the elements until everything falls in place. Personally I felt that fitting first this gear shaft and then the bottom left pin was the easiest. I was leaning on the floor on the left side of the gearbox, washing up towards the gear shaft to make sure this weird oil feeder was still in place, that the shaft was going through the feeder and entering the needle bearing at the back, and once that done I made sure the bottom left pin positioner was going inside the interplate hole. Then everything went in fairly straightforwardly.

I used loctite 270 on each of the 12 screws, screwed everything by hand first and then torqued everything to 28Nm, making sure to do all these steps in a star pattern.

Once done you should get a small amount of loctite 518 on the outside of the gearbox. Wipe it since it will not sure (it only cure in absence of oxygen).


So I hope this helps if anyone if unlucky enough to have to go through these steps. It is doable, but although I am reasonably well equippedd, I had never done anything like this and I am still worried the gearbox is not totally sealed, so will try to refill it over the coming days and see if anything leaks, and will report again.

Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Quick update 48h after reinstallation and 24h after refill => no leak whatsoever.
I have not started the car yet (a bit paranoid, so doing everything step by step at very slow pace), but the gearbox is refilled with 75W90 fluid and everything seems OK (I placed a clean cardboard under the car and not a single drip of anything on it after 24h post refill).

This suggests to me that these parts are really very well machined as the amount of sealant between the cover and the interplate was almost inexistant when I removed the rear plate.

Will see tomorrow if warming up transmission (hence more fluid fluid) will lead to leaks... crossing my fingers.