No, there were a few men talking and laughing off in the corner, and I didn't want to interrupt - looked like one of them was visiting. We just saw the Aston V12 Speedster and a quick look at the GTS and were on our way.
So according to my SA I’m qualified for the Speciale though their list of qualified candidates exceeds their allotment. He said “I’ll keep working on my GM”. Also said a new mid engine coupe is set to be revealed from the factory in the next few months. Consider me “suitably teased”.
The topic of Ferrari relying too much on heritage and not devoting enough resources to saving weight has been well documented, and we probably don’t need to spend any more time on that topic. But imagine for a moment that Ferrari were to cram an engine like the new 1,064hp Chevy LT7 into cutting edge material science weight saving chassis in a beautiful design package like the 296. Imagine for a moment that the various limitations/conflicts (government regulations, R&D cost, engine compartment size) were set aside for this thought exercise. My questions are simple…what lessons might the business manager gain from that scenario? How desirable would that car be? And what might the resale value look like vis-à-vis the actual real life 296?
I have a simpler exercise... Imagine the dealer approaching to tell you about a "mid-engine manual NA V12 under $1M". I love the 296 and what Ferrari's making lately but I'd put a 100% deposit down without even asking about anything else. now the question is, why is that so hard to imagine? Why is it so out of reach?
Lamborghini Revuelto hybrid seems to have done much better than the Ferrari hybrids. Maybe it's because of the 12 cylinder engine instead of the 6 or 8 cylinders? So it puts to rest the idea that the hybrid is just a "green" way of getting more engine output? Unabashed 12 cylinder then they add some additional power with the electric hybrid?
Guys, you don't have enough power for the road, which you can't even use... ask for less weight rather than horsepower, it becomes caricatural. I say it with humor, but it gives the impression of competing for the biggest one, like at school when we were kids.
You cant talk about cars without talking about government regulations. Unless you want to go back to the 60s, and even then, there were regulations. Sure, drop in a mid engine V12 that revs to 12,000 etc. That would be incredible. However, back in the real world, which is where the competition lives, they made their choices. Even if they put in a V12 for the production volume they are selling between the SF90 and 296, if they were priced at the levels of these cars, there would still be a disconnect in the market. The price level of the new cars is just too high, its not the base prices, its the options. They have exploded. The worst part about putting in a V12 mid engine would hurt the higher end of their market. Anyway, back to regulations, the last time we got over regulated very quickly, that was the early 1970s and that really hurt sports cars, but they survived. We really did just come out of a golden era for these cars, so if you like what was being done about 10 years ago, you can go buy them. You can see the reaction in the market, the limited ones are going up considerably. The normal production ones are holding. Less weight would be wonderful, but it’s just not going to happen, not in a purist way, not for a company selling 10,000+ vehicles annually. I’ve got to say, that a 296 with 820 or so hp hybrid weights about something like 3,600lbs, and drives like it weighs more like 3,200lbs, Im surprised this car doesn’t weigh 4,000lbs. Anyway, a little perspective, looking at the world of today, I’m very grateful this is the discussion we are having here. Just some ramblings.
Factory location dependent - factories need workers / Gov't compliance to get much needed incentive money and retention of employees. Ferrari handed out bonuses and stock options - the ides of people here disliking Ferrari is more than 1/2 the posts here. I believe weights will stay same and hp will increase - hybrid will live but limited. Electric will have its place as well - both under 10% for decades as there are better and less expensive R&D by many factories who are going in different directions. The tires factories are behind - eventually they will keep up with weight / power these cars produce.
Feels very early to assess Revuelto resale values - first deliveries were just over a year ago, and the production ramp was a bit slow given some of the issues early cars were having. A year in, SF90s were going for 200k over, obviously very different story 4 years later (and admittedly different market conditions). Will take a couple of years for meaningful depreciation data.
There is no question of regulatory constraints when Ferrari is flooding the market with V12-powered Purosangues. So it is purely a matter of management decision. The Purosangue could be powered by the same hybrid powertrain as the 296, and a mid-engined V12 could be in the works.
Options are the problem on resale. I have been watching vey closely sales on SF90's and 296's over the past few month. Most of the cars, with decent miles and not ugly coloration, sell for just about Base MSRP. Spiders are doing better than coupes, we all know that. The problem is its almost table stakes to see cars built with a minimum of 100K of options, and I see a lot of 296/SF90's coming up for sale with 200K to 250K in options. Buyers are sitting back and buying the highest optioned cars for base and loving it. Buyers are over spec'ing their cars. My dealer is getting 10K to 50K over Base on 296 variants if the car is well done, but not 100+ over Base. Purosangue's are selling for 100 to 130 over MSRP, but not when they have 275K of options, those have a ceiling which seams to be about 150K over Base MSRP maximum. A 296 GTB sold for Base and it had 250K of options on it. Another SF90 sold for 10k over Base with 230K of options on it, you just cannot command that much over Base. F8's are selling for over sticker, but most of them have like 50K or so in options. If an F8 had 250K in options we would say look, nobody wants F8's they are selling for 150K under sticker, yes but still 100K over Base MSRP.
Is the question - how hybrid will age, it won't be lighter. If the tires / brakes suspensions get better - does weight matter. 296VS SF90 XX be desirable as a special limited Dino / Daytona Spider in 50 years - Value is not the cars performance or price -imo it is how it makes you feel as an owner, Ferrari is a lifestyle - it's not about cramming or offering lightweight speedsters, with they would but they won't.
I think your last statement is bang on accurate. If I had a say, Id argue to cut the battery size in half, I find I dont need more than 2-3 miles of range, ever. But I have a feeling that others use it, and the current range of about 12-15 miles is needed to qualify for some kind of designation- though Im not sure on this. As to resale, I think it’s the options, but also I think a lot of coupes especially were ordered in as low a spec as possible, which usually meant very little options, and not very creative. Which, to my mind, puts a wrinkle in the old saying of low spec is best for resale. Because all of a sudden there are many similar spec cars on the market, nothing to differentiate them, aside from price. It becomes a race to the bottom, and that’s just what we’ve witnessed. I think if you are concerned with preserving as much value as possible, then probably best to find a different hobby, though, I would not recommend: boats or planes! But in seriousness, I would say you should make a nice spec without going crazy on options, but also do not skip all the options.
I’m 100% with you on the range. We don’t need 15 miles. Because it’s there, I might use it. But really just a few miles gets you around a city or in and out of you’re neighborhood and would save maybe 50-70 pounds (totally guessing here)
They have a mid-engined V12 in production called the SP3. If you want that experience of the Ferrari brand you are looking at £2m plus. In Lamborghini's brand its £400k, which pretty much underlines were the two brands are in terms of lustre and brand value. They are peer as manufacturers, but not as brands.
I know people say there are lots of cars for sale - but majority of buyers walk in a dealer and buy a car. They have a budget and pick one - especially first time buyers. VS is a whole different level of owners. Seasoned willing to do whatever it takes and care less about what others think - which is why so few owners participate here. Very few Ferrari guys getting a VS etc are car guys - they are Ferrari guys and that's why they built the Puro - for the guys who want an all Ferrari garage. VS - I think there are more than 1 round of allocations -
I am not a physicist, nor do I play one on television, but I don’t see tire tech improving at the same rate that weight is being added to vehicles. My only point was that were Ferrari owned by a passionate single minded sole proprietor, rather than a EBITDA centric corp, and were regulations not so suffocating, Ferrari would likely be building cars more like the…ZR1. There’s an alternate universe where Ferrari offerings are truly glorious, rather than a bastardized version of what they could have been. I say all that fully understanding and appreciating the ethos of the brand. I voted with my wallet and Ferrari dominates my modest assortment of fun cars (Pista, 812 GTS, 12C inbound, and 296 Speciale on order). I like all the various brands, but my heart will always belong to Ferrari. I do, however, reserve the right to lament about what could have been.
Many are still competing for the biggest one in the locker rooms of their local gyms. Of course, the vette guys never take their tube socks off.
