Why does "everyone" prefer the 458 over the 488?

right when @dustman sold 458 5 thousand times and bought it back 6 thousand times. He should chime in...

 

Dude I'm not saying the entire car is the same

I'm isolating for the specific elements that are very similar

You're saying the overall experience is very different therefore everything is very different

It's like eating a steak and a burger and I'm telling you the salt used was from a slightly different brand and not really a huge difference but you're somehow saying you can precisely feel whether it was kosher salt or Himalayan pink salt.

The engine differences between the 458 and 488 dominate the experience.

Any other difference can be explained largely by things you can change yourself (spring rates, arb stiffness) which isn't something that's really worth valuing highly with regards to preferring one over the other (because you can change them)

The geometry is going to be best identical due to use of identical parts. If the geometry is the same, the wheelbase is the same the track is within an inch of each other well within what occurs with changing wheels/tires) then it's really difficult to make the argument that omg one is clearly so much better in a way that the other can't easily replicate.

You can't make the 458 engine behave like the 488 easily (or perhaps at all). So this is a defining feature.

If somehow I can demonstrate to you that the suspension system IS identical in the sense that the parts and everything are the same except the alignment was adjusted slightly and thus feels different/better. You would rightly say that you can feel the difference and have a strong preference. But how can you y tailgate the differences that are due to alignment changes from actual mechanical differences? That's quite difficult. You simply can't do it unless you at a minimum know what the mechanical changes were in the first place.

Differences exist sure but just because there was a part change doesn't mean the part was responsible for whatever effect there was on the overall system.

The changes excluding the engine between the 458 and 488 amount to only a little more than what usually occurs in the mid life refresh on most other modern cars. Many of the changes are similar to changes that you would commonly find between a single model year.


The F8 and 488 are extremely similar, much more so than the 458 and 488. You can literally see the commonality of parts across much more systems/components.

I don't understand why you can't seem to grasp there's a difference between saying there's a lot of similarities in this particular system and the two cars are identical. I'm saying the former not the latter.

 

Omg there's a difference between saying"these components are very similar" and "the entire car is the same"

If I change out the anti roll bar on the car, you will feel it in areas other than roll, it WILL affect bump compliance, droop compliance, steering. But only the anti roll bar changed.

If I give you a car with only the arb stiffness changed, and you identify all these differences. Would you be able to tell what components were changed and in what way?

My answer is no, the normal person wouldn't. Most normal people who feel a difference(and that's not everyone, a lot of people can't feel major changes) in all these different characteristics would come to a conclusion that all those systems were tweaked. Which is wrong.

You need loads experience to feel these things and even then it's hard if not impossible to isolate what changed in what way just from your ass.

I don't get why people think they know this **** just from having bought a lot of these cars. That doesn't make you an expert.

Claiming you can tell the different brand of salt used between a steak and a burger a claim you can make and be taken seriously. I'm saying go into the kitchen and just look at the recipe look at what's on the counter.

If all you're saying is you feel a difference in handling. I can't dispute that with you. But if you claim it is because there's a wildly different design, then we have beef.

If you share control arms, hubs, anti roll bar, weight distributing, and most likely geometry as well, and the only clear differences are spring rates and damping. Then the changes are probably coming from spring rates, damping, Alignment, tires. These aren't insignificant but they're not fundamentally locked in the same way that others are.

In a BMW M5 F90 the front suspension is entirely different, control arms, hubs and all from the normal 550 or lower trims. But the 550 share nearly everything other than the spring/damper with a 540 or 530. I'm sure a 550 handles differently to a 530, much less weight over the front in the 4 banger. It would be wrong to say that the 550 has a superior suspension to the 530 though, but you could make that argument for the M5.

All of them can feel very different but would you be able to tell if there was a hardware change or merely different arrangement of those components(alignment). My answer is hell no people can't tell.

 

On car manufacturing no

On chassis engineering absolutely

If ferrari was a much smaller manufacturer it would be easier to write off the lack of change but McLaren did it from the MP4 12C (458 contemporary) and they have much much smaller production numbers.

Now to be fair, McLaren doesn't make money.

Lamborghini throughput in cars is comparable with ferrari and they do it too in varying degrees of integration, the V12 line having much more CC while the v10 line only has minor integration in the chassis.

A carbon tub is superior, it just is. Much stiffer, much lighter.

The McLaren convertibles are much much much superior in rigidity to the comparable ferrari models.

Whether that is important to you is a personal choice. I have a 458 Spider because to me it isn't that important, I'm not ever going to track it so it is a bit of a non issue. I'm not going to make the argument that the 458 spider chassis isn't floppy, you can easily feel it.

On that note I'll reiterate again that the 488 and 458 spiders are quite different in handling specifically because the chassis rigidity is noticeably different. For the coupes I doubt there's a material difference. Ferrari themselves say the 488 spider rigidity is near identical to the 488 gtb and 20-30 percent stiffer than the 458 spider (which itself lost 30% rigidity vs the 458 Italia).

There's no doubt the aluminum chassis contributes to the F cars being heavier than the comparable McLarens. Ferrari's weight figures for their cars have always been optimistic or borderline outright lies.

I'm sure there's good reason they haven't moved to carbon construction, it's probably going to wreck havoc on production and profits... It's costly to be on the cutting edge.

 

Very similar conversations in many other car forums, and I find the arguments and very different perspectives fascinating. Newer cars are always faster and better, that's the nature of technology development and improvement, hardware and software. There are different kinds of fast though, straight line fast, zero to a hundred fast, 200 to 300 fast, through corners fast, racetrack fast. To me, most of the latest new cars are very "synthetic" due to software support and interventions. I drove a Pista for two years and went back to a Speciale. Best decision of my car life. Ferrari gave me a 296 for two days and I drove it across 6 alpine passes. Boy, that car is very competent and very fast and I had a lot of fun. I drove a 992 GT3 manual for two years and went back to a 997.2 GT3 RS. Second best decision of my car life. But then again, I still find my slow F355 Berlinetta more fun and rewarding than my Speciale. And, I still find my G-Series 911 much more fun than my 997.2 GT3 RS. Believe it or not, the absolute most fun I still have in my lightweight Lotus Exige 430 Cup, on the road and on the track.

 

No problem man. It's a silly and excessive debate. You said, 'if you think you can feel a difference, then it's in your head'..... This was the statement that sparked my comments.... but no sweat- we can drop it -- All 3 are very different driving experiences and feel.

 

Cliffs?

 

I actually enjoy driving my MX5 more than the 458, at least on the mountain roads where I live.

 

That's because you would prefer a stiffer chassis, more power, better handling, better tech, better fit and finish, and better stereo, etc. of the 488!
Hahaha...just kidding. I had to, sorry

 

There is something different at driving a car at 100% than a car at only 50%. More fun.

 

Slow car fast > fast car slow

 

As much as today’s cars are very fast and extremely competent, I find the sweet spot between the years 2005 and 2015. Enough power, still relatively light and not too much software. We got the 430 Scuderia, the F12, the 458 Speciale, the 997 GT3 RS, 997 GT2 RS, AMG GT, V12 Vantage, DBS, GT-R Nismo and more.

 

360 is the sweet spot for purity I think, can always manual convert the f1, no electronic lsd, pure mechanical.

I worry about the electronics in my 458 when they eventually go.

 

He's not chiming in for same reason I'm not - this thread ridiculously stupid + already been covered 1,000x, ad nauseam.

 

Agree, the 360 is a cool car, but to my taste a little underpowered. The F430 has enough power imho.

 

Dunno about you, but I'd rather drive an SP3 at 50% than a Miata at 100%.

But that's just me though.

You do you.

 

That is obvious However the real joy is being able to push it to the limit which no one will ever do unless on a track or autobahn

 

You're conflating the enjoyment of driving a super rare / special unobtainum car with that of driving something just super powerful.

The sp3 isn't going to be enjoyable simply because it is fast.

Fast doesn't automatically make something special.

There's no doubt that all of us would prefer a drive in an SP3 over an mx5 as most of us will never get the chance while am mx5 costs to buy what many of us paid in maintenance/upkeep over the past 3-4 years.

The point is if both were in your garage, which one do you actually drive more of the time. I reach for the mazda more often because it's more carefree and I'm more able to use all the envelope.

It's like on track days you'll see miatas and S2000 and 86s often post faster times than guys in a GT3 because the guys in the former area track rats and probably track 30-40 times a year whereas the dude in the gt3 might go twice a year.

 

I still remember seeing my 1st 360 right when it came out. no way I could afford one back then. I like them..I like the 430 too for me probably because I use to track with a guy that had a 430 and could almost keep up with him when he was on slicks in my Porsche 911 ( 997.1) Carrera S at Sebring and Homestead on track days. Great times for sure!

I too worry about my F8 and its electronics. Not sure what I will do when warranty is up on it but it is covered for a few more years. If anyone offered me a good fair amount for my F8 Id sell it. For now keeping it but also have thought about selling it as I really miss track events and my friends at the track.

 

I would get a 458 over a 488 anyday. Maybe over also a 430 Scuderia.
Perhaps most bulletproof V8 ever, daily driver, modern, fast, easy drivable. And better investment.
I drove a 458 and a Murcielago SV in a track. 458 had better steering, brakes, feeling, even sound, for me. Maybe because of the F1 experience, maybe because of newer model, I don't know. It was so balanced and enjoyable. I can't imagine how amazing is to drive a Speciale

 

highly disagree with ALL of that but that's the beauty of these cars..we can all feel and think something different.

 

360 just a tad slow, 430 fast enough and 458 perfect - fast enough to drive completely suicidally on the road if you choose

 

Hola….

I kinda just shrug because to each their own and I clearly found what I prefer having owned 458’s a few times and several of the 488 series. I try to remember there are always new entrants to these cars and I’m sure our collective povs is helpful.

If you like 911 Turbo, and modern BMW M cars then get a 488.
If you like GT3’s and GT350R then get a 458.

None of you asked for this but having just come back from where I keep the gated 355 spider with capristo stage 3 exhaust…there my driving friends is nirvana and for the price of a loaded F150.

 

This topic has been brought up many times and has always turned into a debate As someone who has had enough experience with both cars, I would like to make some comments. First of all, I would never say that 488 is much better or 458 is much better.
However, there are some objective issues. When the 458 Italia first came out, it created a great revolution and was considered a reference point in the sports car world for many years with its ease of use, technology and driving dynamics. I think this is something that can happen once in many years in a car brand. In fact, even today when you drive it, the vehicle feels quite good in terms of infrastructure and performance, and that is why I personally think it is one of the best sports cars of modern times. After Ferrari set a new standard with the 458 and raised the bar very high, it made the 488 and f8 models as successor models and these vehicles had turbocharged engines and naturally the numbers reached incredible levels. I think it is a bit psychological for people to say that the 488 is much faster or that it is different in this way. Because the change between these models is definitely not as big as the revolution between the 458 and the previous models. What I mean is that after the technology reaches a certain level, the acceleration figures and horsepowers remain as paper data. Both cars are great, but I always see the 458 as a step ahead and a more iconic car, with its high-revving engine and incredible throttle response.

 

What I find funny is....people comparing a 458 vs 488 vs F8 and most have never owned all 3, a lot have never really driven all 3 or pretty much most only put 1k miles if that on a car and then talk about like they designed the thing while driving the Nurburgring. HA!

With that said.... I have never owned a 458. Test drove one and I picked the 488. Nothing wrong with either car both are Ferrari's through and through.