V-12 Engine into 308 Build, over on Grassroots

If I may, look into moldstar 90 material for the seats. I know you've got a crap ton of seats. The small stem dia coupled with the small valve face and contact area kinda limits the thermal transfer.

 

I've been quiet but there are a few updates. I was asked a couple months ago to design a set of 1 off 308 wheels but that was paused for tariffs, but tariffs are (mostly) paused so I was trying to knock that out....its mostly done and if there is any profit it will go to the engine repair.

The wheels should be done but I distracted myself with my power steering being over assisted. A buddy gave me a CAN sniffer that actually works (unlike the one I bought) and hooked it up to the steering activation unit I bought for the fiesta PS unit. So read what is being sent to the PS unit and it looks like this

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I THINK the 730h is a system ok signal and I need to just have the ECU duplicate that. Then the 201h appears to be this

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and I'm guessing the magic happens in byes 5&6 which is speed. This is an OBDII channel so I'm thinking setup this to send real data to the steering controller and see what I have....hopefully it will be good and I can also use an OBDII ot bluetooth dongle to have data for TrackAddict or similar once its race-ready. Another option is use a table to lei about speed to the PS controller and get the assist I want that way. I did set the car on the ground so once I have CAN signals I can feel the steering force and see if its doing what I want.

Another part of the plan is to mess with the balljoint shims and A-arm bearing spacers to add more caster as another way of improving steering feel. These are free but time consuming projects while I wait/save for parts.

On that note, a couple people who really wanted to see this going faster (get it? going faster? its a pun ) ask me to set this up

https://gofund.me/2d3e199b

so I would knock of the whining about what parts Lana won't let me have this week Image Unavailable, Please Login



Anyway, I'm trying to get the ECU talking to the PS this week, probably caster next week...then maybe the piston will be back and it will be time to fix the valve pockets. Oh, the valve seats cam so I have that to do as well.

 

The piston coating people called today to say they e-billed me a week ago and wondered if I planned to pay.....hmmm...no email but I do very much want the piston back. Billing person was gone for the day when I got the message and called back so I'll take care of it Monday I guess.

I haven't really worked on the CAN stuff for the steering. I played a little and I only see 1 message coming from the dongle thingy. I think I can set up the reading software to transmit so I can try a few things on the laptop before trying to code anything into the ECU.

I've decided to have a go at a push to start setup. The inexpensive setups on amazon appear to be not very useful....I can't be sure because there are no description of function for most of them but I decided to not bother figuring even if it actually is what I wanted I'm not sure I trust it to not leave me stranded. Probably the nicest option is to just put a latching on/off push button where the key was and let the ECU handle the starter.....and I may still do that at some point but I'm feeling KISS is the answer so I'll leave the ECU out of it for now.

I ordered a momentary push switch, 2 actually because the one I like I'm not certain is a momentary switch so I ordered a back-up that for sure is.
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Then I ordered a 12v push button self-locking relay. This will go to ignition. push the button, ignition on, push again ignition off.
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For the starter I orders dual standard 12V relays. One will be triggered by the brake pedal, 1 by the dash button.
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so, $53 (but $10 back if I return whichever switch I don't use so $43) and if I've thought this through correctly it will function like this:
push = ignition on, push again = ignition off, no brake no start just ignition on/off.

push and hold the brake + push and hold the button = ignition on and starter cranking, release brake or button starter stops but ignition remains on.

So not TRULY push to start because you need to hold the button for the starter but mostly. I'm a little concerned about turning off....I usually pull in, hold brake and clutch, engine off and that would cause the started to try to engage for as long as the button is held. I might add a timer, pretty sure I have one up stair on the shelf or learn to set the parking brake so I can release the brake pedal :lol:

it also leaves me with no actual key or locking anything preventing theft so that is something

Totally unrelated there the rear window defrosted switch had been broken I think since I've owned the car. I found a used one for $250 and did not buy it, which is why I never fixed it. My 1st car was a very sad 1966 austin healey 3000mk3 (which is where my user name mke - mark E kind of like 3 comes from and I thought it funny the same way I chuckle every time I initial anything "me") and I would swear the overdrive switch looks like the ferrari switched so I bought 1 on ebay for $20, the lever is wrong so I'm betting the $20 I can pull it off and slip on the ferrari lever and once again have a working switch sitting in the console designed for no useful purpose but perhaps if I think really hard I can come up with something.

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Or, if the levers can't be interchanged, buy three more Healey switches for $60 and have four new matching switches for $80 all-in vs. the $250 for one Horsey switch.
- Dave

 

this is only a 2 position switch, the fan and wiper I think are 3 position so I'd need to find a 3 position mg/healey version

I decide to buy the cheapest shift light I could find, $18.59
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The plan is to use it as starter lock out. It says 1k-11k rpm and 4, 6, 8 cyl settings. A normal 4 cyl tach is 2 pulses per rev, but my Tach is 2.6 pulses per rev so 1k setting should be about 750 rpm which is just about right. So rip it apart and wire it into my starter relays and pressing the button when the engine is running should not engage the starter. In theory....if I wire it all correctly.

 

So you all probably already know I ordered a timer relay because that is the last piece to make this a true push to start. $5.98 for a 2 pack so with all the bits I've ordered I think I can assemble:
Push the button, (no brake) is ignition on, push again ignition off

Push an hold the brake, then push push the start button and ignition on then like a 1/2 sec delay so the ecu boots and fuel pump starts before it cranks, then crank until engine starts or like 5 sec of cranking.

So it can be a fully functional modern push to start but built mostly with 1950s technology

 

I kind of got started
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The install on the last switch maybe wasn't my best work
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and then Amazon delivered my buttons!

.....yeah.....I feel like I did as a kid when I ordered anything from the back of a comic book They are both much too small and would look silly
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so back I went to button searching and settled on this almost double the size:
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It comes as part of a $50 push to start kit which appears to be modular so no unwanted locking feature. Info on all this stuff is about impossible to find so I'll see when it arrives. I might be able to return all or most of the stuff I already bought or the fall back plan is buy an OEM button and make it work I guess

The diff was very clunky so I also grabbed some different limited slip additive while it was on my mind.
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Amazon Addiction Affliction - it happens to everyone! I'm usually buying something for the cars every Monday morning and if you shop carefully, you can actually buy quality stuff (like Bosch fuel pumps for 308s, Marelli sensors, etc.) to go with your side of Chinese junk...glad to see you are back with updates

 

The push to start kit came and the button is not bad
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The controller is kind of a pita honestly and the instructions I would rate a 3 out of 10 maybe.,...not quite worthless but not very helpful so it took a bit of trial and error to figure what it wants and what it does.

plus side
brake on and the button starts blinking to tell you is armed and ready, the tap the button and you get ignition on, about a 1/2 delay and starter on for either 0.85 or 1 sec or press and hold the button and you get the 1/2 sec delay then starter until you let go or 5sec. That seems ok.

no brake it cycles acc, on, off with each push.

Minuses
1) You need to push the brake for ignition off if it things the engine is running. not a fan of that, I REALLY like to have a kill button/switch handy. This might be a deal breaker....I need to thing about it.
2)it shuts the ignition off after 5 sec if it doesn't thing the engine is running. Blue wire to 12V ign on disables that but it seems a worthless function. Power to the blue wire stops the starter would be more helpful
3)Its kind of hard to enable/disable, I simple switch won't do. There are 3 wires, white+brown power on/off enables, white/black + brown power on/off disables. This would need a switch plus a pair of timed relays I think? or maybe put a relay on the switch and LED wires? Either way its not trivial

Not sure it this is worth keeping of not...I did realized thought that is I do a DIY I still need like 30A relays to actually switch the starter and ignition. I ordered 10A relays to do the control login not realizing there are no actual power relays, so I would need to add those is I return this unit.

 

i know the Arduino is digital but if there were an "older", more original switch it might appear better. Maybe just put an older button as a cap over this... I know I am picky and your car - not mine. I love it you still have the ferrari keys.... It sort of keeps it "sleeper" in the interior.

 

You know....I struggled for years with what exactly I'm building. I have the 348 seats because the blusters are better bolsters but I also have a set of needing lot of work 308 seats that COULD have better bolsters and look more original. Everything goes like that and switches and buttons are no different. The OEM ignition switch/lock broke 20 years ago when I was in the middle or supercharger work and I had 0 patients with it, sawed the lock off and install a generic switch I probably bought at tractor supply....and I hate it. I've thought about a race car start panel where the AC controls are but I keep thinking about fixing an AC system...or a panel on the dash or now I've kind of finally settled using the stock opening and a subtle button that kind of sort of lock similar to the oem switch.

The button I just got and kind of lie is a VW/audi button in a custom mount I'm pretty sure...but its still a touch small for the hole in the dash so it eight needs an adapter for the adapter of a new larger adapter if I want to use it. I've also found a plain unlabeled push button that is large enough for the hole, but I'm worried it will just look too big, I might order it just to see. I've pretty much decided to just return the push to start kit.....I might keep it to use the button and the 4 30A relays inside a neat box but I don't like the functionality...still pondering the path forward here but I"m inching closer and closer to dragging the ECU into the fight.

 

I cant remember what you decided on the ECU, but some ECU can incorporate a start/stop button. I believe.

 

I repaired my AEM/enginelab ECU and an sitting here about to look over the available I/O pins to see if that it what I want to do. I have 3 spare wires already in the harness, I have the brake pedal switch already wired in. so an output to engage the starter is maybe all I'm missing? I was wanting to leave the ECU out of it but it is seeming like the simplest path.

 

English vs Italian
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Popped off the handle with a little heat...still a match
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What bit me was the Healey switch had a hex nut (I could have sworn my old car had a round one....maybe a year thing) but no problem I'll, just use the ....oh man, old English stuff has English threads, but I have a lathe that cuts english threads
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and Bam! 1 point for me!
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Small win to take my mind off my push button that is keeping my mind off my engine

 

For the push button starter, I would consider a single button just for the starter, this lets you crank as long as needed, modern cars probably have a feedback loop for a running condition to stop the starter as well as a computer to sort out all the other things like priming the fuel pump, etc..

Are you using something for security like a proximity key? I would think that a button, or switch for on and off would be needed for the fuel injection computer, etc.

 

separate switches for ignition and starter is still an option but is more a fall-back plan at this point as i really would prefer a single button in the OEM location. I sketched out what I could do with the shift light (rpm switch) and timer relays to control the starter but just handing the starter control to the ECU is SOOO much easier. Its a simple "if the brake is on && rpm < 300 && cranking time under 5sec then crank something with a couple more conditions for safety but pretty easy so I'll add the starter to the ECU.

Mostly I need to pick a button, I ordered this last night, it should be waiting for me to look at when I get home
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The OD is almost exactly the same size as the washer I was using to hold the key switch so this is big enough to just install but I think it will likely look too heavy so the idea is paint the outer ring satin black and probably not power the LED section at all or maybe with the dash lights on. I like the VW switch but it does look a bit too modern so I want to see how just a plain switch looks.

Using a proximity key is probably the wisest and I still might do that but the current plan involves a security switch. My thought is security switch on, hit the main button ignition will come on, and if the brake is also on when ignition comes on then 1 sec later the engine will crank until it starts but no more than 5 sec. The ECU already handles the fuel pump and such.

Aux power is the one I've struggled with....my plan is security switch off, hit the main button and you get Aux power and just figure I don't much care if someone brakes into the car and listens to the radio.

All this means I need 3 power relays. I'll put the starter relay in back with the ECU stuff but I need to find a place up front for 2 more. The security switch I've already mounted but still need to wire.

 

hmmmmm........

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1 more...it kind of matches the gauges a bit i think

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The last one with print looks best to me. You could always print a bezel to house it.

Quick add, wife's VW has a scary annoying feature with the button... It'll shut off the car even when it's in drive and actively being driven.. Just shuts everything down... Don't like that! Kinda surprised VW coded them to do that.. something I noticed back when she had the Passat 9-10yrs ago.. the new atlas does it too.

 

I was leaning silver but you're the second vote for black.....hmmmm

Wait, you pushed the off button and the car turned off? Like its the same an enemergy stop button? Or same as if you reached up and turned the key off? That's nuts!

Seriously though I'm not understanding the problem?...but I guess now that I think about it all our cars have been German lately. What do you think should happen when you press through off button? I guess I could see it being an issue if the button is on the console not the dash....my wife spilled coffee on the console of her VW and it took an hour with a hair dryer to get the parking brake to turn off. I'm a little nervous about using the defrost switch for ignition because it seems like something a passenger might hit.

The push to start kit I bought is getting a 1 star review from me because turn off is brake+button which to me is a safety issue...I really like to know that when I hit the e-stop it will stop.

 

Yup, shut it right down like an emergency stop. I was not crazy enough to try it at speeds greater then walking. The button is on the console right above the parking switch. No idea why it occurred to me to check, but I went..I wonder.. the misses like to fill the cup holders and every bin with objects.. So while at an idle crawl..I pressed the button.. shut down, turned the steering wheel and without power it was difficult and it locked. It requires pressing the brake to start again.. of that happens on the highway.. Yikes!

The new atlas.. I opened the door once while parking.. damn thing slammed on the brakes and went into neutral and set the emergency brake. There was a recall on the wiring harness as it did that once in traffic as I was making a I turn.. just slammed everything to a stop and shut off. Thankfully they fixed it. But the systems are oddly tied for God knows what kinda of safety reason. Gov regulation most likely.
I don't like the new cars as everything is fly by wire... Steering, brakes etc.. might as well be holding a game controller.

But give it a go, recommend start with idle crawl in gear.. press the start/stop button and see what happens. For a console button it seems crazy dangerous to me. The old audi from '04 didn't do that, had to be in neutral or park for it to shut off. With everything drive by wire, shutting down the system is nuts.

 

That is the result i would 100% expect....exactly what turning the key did in the past. The few cars I've ever tried a hit the button while driving resulted in engine off and trans to neutral. The oldest car I had with a button was a 2012 so no idea about earlier stuff but for sure that is how my 2014 DD works and is what I'm designing the 308 system to do...."off means off" is kind of the only path through a risk assessment a coasting by mistake is way lower risk than uncontrolled acceleration or fire or all the off bad things that can happen under power. A few years back the ECU I have in the 308 failed do shut down the engine at key off one day, The next day I added an extra relay so key off removes control of the ignition and fuel from the ecu....when the key is off the engine WILL stop and that is how I I'm planning for the button to work as well and a big part of why the "push to start kit" is going back to amazon not going in the car.

The kill the engine and slam on the brakes when the door opens.....that is not a feature I will be adding

 

I've got no issue with the stop button killing the engine. In the Passat it did that and put the car in park and set the emergency brake.. That was startling. I don't recall what it did in the Atlas, if it was Park or neutral, but it does activate the parking brake. Again this was at walking/crawl speed.. no idea what happens at road speed.

Obviously none of these things are a concern for the old 308's as it's analog controls. Brake pedal to start is a good idea or even clutch interlock. Ages ago I put a button start on an old M5 and wired in a clutch interlock to avoid mistakingly starting in gear.

 

Ah.... thought we were on whole different pages and really wanted to understand why.

I've been pondering add a clutch requirement...it does seem like the wisest choice. I already added a clutch pedal switch in preparation for launch control or some kind and my ECU pinout says I connected it...but I need to make sure as there is a wire hanging under the dash that I suspect was destined for the clutch switch.

 

Id go with clutch over brake, both would crazy! If not just a touch funny.. Talk about theft proof! Both feet in to start! Hahaha.