Why does "everyone" prefer the 458 over the 488? | Page 9 | FerrariChat

Why does "everyone" prefer the 458 over the 488?

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by amazingtrails, May 28, 2025.

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  1. up4speed

    up4speed F1 Rookie
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    Well thanks for explaining the details of it. I'm not sure which part of that Mandalay was talking about,
    And obviously, I oversimplified it because (as I mentioned), I have no idea about this stuff.

    I was responding to this part after you said that there was no way that you can physically have boost at idle:
    "Yes, anti-lag systems can help a turbocharger produce boost when the driver is off the throttle, including during circumstances that would normally lead to very low exhaust flow, such as IDLE or deceleration".
    So not sure if any of that is wrong, or if I just didn't understand the specifics of what you guys were talking about.
    All this turbo talk is above my pay grade, lol. I'm just here trying to learn a thing or two.
     
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  2. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY F1 World Champ
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    Once upon a time there was google and still is. Now there is AI , Chat gpt. Im correct he is wrong. Oh well.
     
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  3. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY F1 World Champ
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    On the Ferrari 488 GTB, there are multiple pressure sensors used to monitor and control boost — and their location is key to understanding why you might see positive pressure at idle.

    Primary Boost Pressure Sensor Locations on the 488 GTB (F154CB engine):
    1. Charge Air Pressure Sensor (MAP/Boost Sensor)Pre-Throttle
    • Location: In the charge pipe or intercooler outlet, before the throttle body.

    • Purpose: Measures boost pressure generated by the turbo before it enters the intake manifold.

    • Result: This sensor can and often does read positive pressure at idle, especially on a high-performance turbo like the 488 GTB's, where the ECU keeps the turbos mildly spooled up even at low RPM.
    Bonus Note: Ferrari 488 uses a torque-request strategy, not traditional throttle control. So the ECU may keep turbo pressure available and use throttle and spark to manage torque, which can lead to non-intuitive boost readings.

    Ferrari has done an awesome job on their Turbo engines. Any reference to 80's 4 cylinder pots is nonsense. Ferrari knew from the start they would be scrutinised and they were . The verdict virtually no Turbo lag.

    V8 or V6 with this amount of power the obvious choice is Turbo not N/A. Well it is if you wish to keep your license.
     
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  4. lamborarijason

    lamborarijason Karting

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    #204 lamborarijason, Jul 7, 2025
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2025

    100% agree with you and very well writen. Except postive boost at idle, Unless you are talking about with launch control engaged. The boost gauge reading will not show positive boost, in fact takes a bit to see +1 psi. You will notice the lag off the line even with ESC off unless the car is already moving or launch control is engaged. From 2nd gear car is already moving, there is no lag and it can break tires loose from rolling.

    I daily drove 488 and put on 15kish miles first year. My only dislike with the car is its responds off the line, if the car is moving virtually lag free, it was powerful enough back then for me, blast to drive, easy to control. It also has invisible early fuel cut off where if manual shifting, rev limiter will kick in before reaching redline in first gear.

    I am quite picky when it comes to instant responds. I recall while driving home in 488 back in 2018, a kid in model 3 performance was driving next to me for a while, then we came to a stop at stoplight. Light turn green, the kid jump out of hole, I just drove normally. Judging by how instant he jumpped off line even if I had prepared and gone for it, by the time my 488 starts to really move after I press the gas pedal, he is minimum 1 to 1.5 bus length ahead. I could certainly catch up and pass him, but by then it be 80mph.

    Drive a 488, side step, floor it, or any method to get the car off line quickly. You will notice the lag or delay. If I remember correctly boost gauge can be displayed on left side, the reading will not show +1 or even 0 psi at idle. I have not driven Pista, but they improved it massively in F8, feels super instant. I replaced 488 with F8 because of that, and even sounded better to me despite GPF.
     
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  5. KnifeEdge2k1

    KnifeEdge2k1 Formula Junior

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    It's most definitely wrong, also in general don't trust AI results on technical matters

    To have boost (meaning pressure above ambient) you
    You can't have boost at idle, boost by definition is above ambient pressure.

    Think about what would happen if you had ambient pressure in the intake manifold in an NA car, it would mean you were at full throttle.
     
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  6. KnifeEdge2k1

    KnifeEdge2k1 Formula Junior

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    Measuring pressure before the throttle body is meaningless.

    Sure it might read something above ambient at idle... Because the throttle body is closed

    If you gingerly take off the intake will be at partial vacuum because the turbo won't be spooled so you'll have a slight vacuum in the same location, that makes no sense as a "boost" figure

    Meanwhile, at the intake manifold, idle would show near vacuum at idle and I increase to ambient and then positive pressure as throttle as applied and flow increases, this makes sense.

    The boost figure you're looking at in no way is reflective of what actually matters, which is how much airflow going into the cylinders.
     
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  7. KnifeEdge2k1

    KnifeEdge2k1 Formula Junior

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    The 1psi you see if boost pre throttle is likely just a calibration error

    You need to do work to produce boost, at idle there's by definition the minimum amount of gas/energy being expended to just keep the engine from stalling.

    The turbine wheel will still spin (and thus compressor will as well) but this is a MINIMUM flow state of the engine.

    If your throttle is closed, by definition everything pre throttle is effectively just ambient pressure.

    Everything post throttle will be near vacuum

    As soon as you crack the throttle open a little you'll see a drop in pressure pre throttle as flow increases and it will continue to stay below ambient until the turbine spools up enough that the compressor can generate real boost (pressure above ambient at the manifold)
     
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  8. Echelon

    Echelon Karting

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    I've owned a McLaren and even with a $12,000 exhaust system it sounded like a vacuum cleaner. It was bad, in fact, I sold the car over it. Everyone who says a 488 doesn't sound good hasn't heard one with a inconel exhaust. Stainless, Titanium and Inconel all have different tones. Inconel being the best and unfortunately, most expensive.

    The 458 doesn't sound good with just any exhaust setup either. Some go too far and it sounds like a raspy ricer from the 90's. There is a balance to finding the right tone under load.
     
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  9. KnifeEdge2k1

    KnifeEdge2k1 Formula Junior

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    apparently the key is to have an equal length long tubed stepped 4-1 headers with a x-pipe but ill fully admit that in this space i'm wayyyyyyy out of my element and i'm simply regurgitating something i read somewhere

    again, something i heard somewhere is that sometimes the less good sounding exhaust is the one that makes more power (i guess mathematically that HAS to be true but my guess is what the source meant was this happens more often than not so is a legitimate tradeoff that you have to make)
     
  10. BuyHighSellLow

    BuyHighSellLow Karting

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    #210 BuyHighSellLow, Jul 7, 2025
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2025
    I'm not sure which world you live in where everything you read on google is true. There is more misinformation and non facts on google than there are truths. Even if it 'comes up first', doesn't mean it's right.

    however, on this specific topic, I have no idea which is correct but Knifedge's explanations seem to make the most mechanical sense.
     
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  11. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY F1 World Champ
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    I have had several cars tuned with MoTec. Second look at your gauges and see the positive pressure in the charge pipe.

    Suggesting it is an error is ridiculous.

    Ferrari has done an awesome job in its ECU's. The fact that a 3.9 litre twin turbo can hold perfect Idle at 750 rpms is amazing.

    I have never denied that an engine will have a negative at closed throttle however there is a thing called a bypass valve which anyone who has tuned an engine will testify it takes a VERY long time to get it right.

    Either way the 488GTB has virtually no lag and given all the torque is a much better engine to have whilst still enjoying your license.

    All the mid cars have their own sounds. Different yes , Ones that are louder yes . But the 488 GTB sounds great and in a field of modern cars today you know when a 488GTB is coming down the road.
     
  12. KnifeEdge2k1

    KnifeEdge2k1 Formula Junior

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    I legit worry about our future as a society if there are those of us who blindly accept what we're told as fact without thinking on it.

    Like I'm not even ragging on the 488 or YOUR 488.I'm simply starting physical facts.

    I dunno if MANDALAY is just being pedantic or stubborn but it should be evidently clear that the pressure the valves/cylinder "sees" is manifold pressure not pre-throttle pressure.

    The intake arrangement in the 488 goes

    Outside air - > air filter - > turbo compressor - > intercooler - > throttle - > manifold - > valves/cylinder

    I don't even doubt that MANDALAY may even be correct in his assessment that the gauge reads positive if the source is indeed the pressure sensor pre-throttle... It just doesn't mean anything.

    If you had a massive crack in the intake manifold just leaking oodles of oodles of air, the pressure sensor pre throttle could be reading +20psi above ambient but the manifold (thus , cylinders) only sees +5psi, so you think your car will be performing as normal or be really weak?

    This ain't rocket science.

    Also, blindly thinking ferrari gets everything correct or doesn't lie to you is insane given they have plenty of history of doing both. The 458 probably is overrated at 570ps and dynos I've seen suggest figures that are 20ps or so lower. Every single weight figure ferrari has ever put out to the public is just a complete bold faced lie.

    Most of us go into this with both eyes open and are aware and accepting of these Italian flaws. It's an entirely different thing to try and convince yourself those flaws don't exist. That's the difference between dating a supermodel and simping for one.
     
  13. Eric C

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    Cliffs?
     
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  14. Dmond

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    Lol, I bet.
     
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  15. Jaguar36

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    I chose a 458 over the 488 for a handful of reasons. Looks and reliability were up there, but the biggest one was the NA engine with its 9k redline and the exhaust note. They're both great cars and I could have gone either way, but personally I think the turbo engine was a step backwards. For me a Ferrari isn't about having the max performance (hell my Tesla is way faster than either of them), its about having extremely good performance while looking the best, sounding the best, and being the most fun. Biggest downside to the 458s is that they are starting to get a little old, but age comes for us all and the 488 will be just as old in a few years as well.

    As for the performance difference I think they are actually pretty close on the track. Around VIR's Grand Course the 488 is ~4 seconds a lap faster according to Car and Driver. Except the 488 was wearing much stickier tires, the Michelin Sport Cup 2s vs the Michelin Pilot Super Sports on the 458. That probably accounts for the majority of the difference between them. The difference on the street, for less skilled driver like me is going to be negligible.
     
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  16. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY F1 World Champ
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    We all like cars and models for different reasons however reliability ? The 458 suffers from MORE gear box issues. The 488 GTB has a more refined and reliable gearbox with fewer known issues.
    A N/A with all this power in the 70's would have been awesome given hardly any cops on the road and no speed radars or cameras.

    The 458 in second max at 130 kms , License gone and so is the car. You need that rev to get any torque.

    That's where turbos win today with their Torque. At 60 km speed limits the 458 will only see 1st and second gear however never at 9,000 RPM. No fun at all.

    Note the 488GTB isn't an 80's 2 litre Turbo.
     
  17. vjd3

    vjd3 F1 Rookie
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    Gearbox is the same Getrag unit … 488 is newer so less issues so far but they will all have seal issues eventually.
     
  18. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY F1 World Champ
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    The 458 had heaps of gear box issues 2010- 2012

    Compared to the 458 Italia, the 488 GTB’s 2nd gear is slightly shorter, despite more torque, which helps reduce turbo lag and improve acceleration.
     
  19. SDSferrari

    SDSferrari Karting

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    488 has more turbo issues than the 458 ;)
     
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  20. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY F1 World Champ
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    Yep to people that abuse their cars
     
  21. dustman

    dustman F1 World Champ
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    lol!
     
  22. Jaguar36

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    The 458 is making close to max torque at 3500 RPMs. Tons of space between that and redline to have fun. Around here you can come pretty close to redline in 3rd and still be reasonably safe from any cops.
    There were enough stories here about expensive turbo issues to make me wary of it. Did those owners abuse their cars? Are the issues overblown? I dunno.
    I think I would like the 488 more if it acted like a 80s turbo, but its trying to be a NA car (and Ferrari did an admirable job doing that!). One of the most fun cars I've ever drive was my buddy's old Audi that had a soft suspension and big ole laggy turbo. You'd floor it, and it would putter along for a second or two and then BAM the boost would kick in and with that suspension it felt like you were doing a wheely.
     
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  23. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
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    Really? Neither my 2010 nor my 2011 have had a single issue in 10+ years of ownership.
     
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  24. vjd3

    vjd3 F1 Rookie
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    Those early DCT issues concerned the internal wiring harness being chafed by clips that became brittle after exposure to heat and oil, resulting in speed sensor errors (loss of even or odd gears). The clips were updated which corrected that issue but the basic gearbox is the same (aside from ratios model to model). But the seals get degraded by metal from unsealed bearings wearing and heat/oil exposure, and can start leaking through the weep hole. Disassembly is the fix. My 2015 Cali T never had a gearbox error until it started leaking at 32k miles. It had metal from the bearings inside and the seal was compromised. Mercedes recognized the problem in its AMG cars using the same box and extended the warranty 8 years. Ferrari, not so much ;)

    I went from a Cali 30 to a Cali T and loved the extra HP and torque from the turbos. No discernable turbo lag to me, especially compared to my 87 930 which was like a Camry off the line and then practically knocked your head off when the boost came on. But I recently chose the 458 over the 488 after driving both because the 458 has enough power for me and has that sound. There is no wrong answer here. :)
     
  25. dustman

    dustman F1 World Champ
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    Same here. Zero issues owning five 458’s.
     
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