V-12 Engine into 308 Build, over on Grassroots

I did figure out how to get the ECU to change steering force which is good. On the minus side it felt like I could mostly ADD assist, not sure how much I can remove. There is an output that looks like its steering force that I don't have scaled well....0 (not touching the wheel) is 0.5 and turning left I see a max of 0.6, turning right a min of 0.4 with what I believe is minimum PS assist. At max assist the numbers are more like 0.54/0.46 and sitting parked this is basically 1 finger steering (imagine 1 finger parking a 308 ). With the dongle values are like 0.58/0.42 ish.....so already 2/3-3/4 full soft I guess? I'm going to clean up the code a bit and tie it to (vehicle speed X tuning variable) +min speed so I can easily control max assist and how quickly it drops to min assist and call it the best I can do and see how it feels.

I think the 2nd 1/2 of the plan is crank up the caster. Its about 4 deg now, I'm thinking target 7 or 8 and see how that feels. This is next up I think.

Last I realized my steering position is actually steering change meaning 0 is where ever the steering wheel was pointing when the PS unit turned on. Still useful but I'll need to remember to park with the wheel straight at the autocross to make the steering log data most helpful....or I can always still add an actually position sensor.

 

So I was thinking about the steering unit really wanting to over assist and that maybe I could throw some high power resistors in there but then came up with a better idea....If I intercept the strain gauge signal I can tell it the driver isn't working so it should chill. I cleaned up some other stuff then got out the scope, pulled the connector and killed the GD PS unit. Last time it died a wire got kicked off and I kind of assumed something shorted but it looks more like if its powered on when the connection is missing if bricks itself. MFer

Time to redo the PS setup

 

From the day I built the steering setup I've not loved it....
1)the steering unit, which is very clearly subject to fail, needs to be a bolt-in or nearly so.
2) Love the quick steering (and honestly would like it even quicker), hate the quicker itself and how I installed it.
3) the PS unit blocks my clutch foot.
4) its way over assisted

This all needs a re-think.......

 

Just finished chatting with a very helpful woman in China and see is going to make me a Power steering unit from a few different products they have....kind of a compact ATV design but with automotive size connections and power. Then she is going to custom program the controller so I can can tell it exactly what output I want at any given moment. The (broken) fiesta unit I have is on a 50A fuse and this is a 65A max so it should be at least what the old unit had as a max assist. I'll order that tomorrow

Then one of my way better with electronics than me buddies will make a little box that reads vehicle speed and lets me program what steering assist I want. He was on about a bluetooth phone app so its sounds nice but the end result will be an assist vs speed curve (not line, curve) that is whatever I want it to be. Technically I can probably just make my ECU control the steering but the PS unit I just spec'd plas a nice little controller sure feels like a product that is better and WAY cheaper than anything currently on the market so I'm buying a few, ping me if you want one before they hit ebay. I'm thinking I can do $299

We might do something with a programmable controller for OEM PS units for like $199....ping me if that is something you want and I'll dig into it.

Then, the plan is I'm NOT got to cut or weld it, I'm just going to make adapters and bolt it in. I know, you're all disappointed, but even I can learn from my mistakes Image Unavailable, Please Login

The next thing to sort out is the ratio bit....keep what I have with the quickener or do a custom rack?????

 

Awesome! See if they'll throw in an old school lever action tilt steering in with it

 

If you want one I'll totally hook you up, a know a guy!

 

Today I realized the reason the steering boots didn't fit right is because for whatever reason, my car has a mondial rack in it. That makes measuring it see a bit pointless I think. The mondial manual has a nice drawing with the critical info, the 308 manual has a poor quality drawing without the need dimensions which is not helpful

I'm kind of eying having Titan make me a rack
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1613/8529/files/Data-Sheet-Titan-Bespoke-Steering-Rack__C99-610-000-01-AT-DR_offset.pdf?v=1589212338

Stock is 3.2 revs so 38mm/rev. The superperfomance 2.5 about 62mm/rev, with my 2:1 gearing I was at 1.7 revs and about 73mm/rev and I really liked that titan can do 72. 79. 86 and an 86mm/rev which would be 1.5 revs lock to lock which seems amazing. But, the pinion is straight, not a 4.5deg angle so I would need to scooch it a little, which I think would be fine. I need to hunt down a 308 rack to measure I guess.

 

Also, I ordered this $20 steering position sensor thinking now is the time

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Does any know....is a $200 rhd austin mini rack the same as a lhd 308 rack? They sure look the same and come standard or quick ratio

 

The titan steering rack price list I found and liked was from 2005, the $600 rack is now $2k....maybe, that is nearly a full year of car budget.....but they look amazing and they can do a 1.75, 1.58 or 1.45 turn setups but still needs adapter bits made.
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At kind of the other end of the spendy spectrum is a $165 14" empi rack that is 1.5 turns and exactly the right travel but I would need to extend the 1 side....so lets call it $250 and it is a bit...well...sad.
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There is an oval track unit from sweet mfg for about $600 that is much nicer that I could do the same extend the end trick on I think and have 1.66 or 1.43 turn options
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Or buy a 2.5 turn bolt-in rack and just pretend I'm happy? Definitely better than 3.2 turns. The best I can tell the mondial rack in my car is the same as the 308 rack but has 5mm more stroke.

I put a torque wrench on my steering tonight and sitting in the garage its right about 30Nm to turn it. This is the 1.7 turns setup with a dead PS unit probably adding some resistance. The Chinese PS units are NOT ordered as there are still a few questions on the specs I'm trying to sort out but 30-40Nm is what I think the max output is so it would probably be fine with a fast rack. The way its setup now with a slow rack and a quicken the Ps unit needs about 15Nm so it would be plenty strong enough...the issue is I really fought the quickener into that spot but maybe with the new PS unit it will fit better?

 

I was on vacation for the last couple weeks. Per the power steering, I have been looking into this quite a bit. There are many ebay kits - very cheap. There is a localish company I am probably going with that makes kits - https://epowersteering.com . Their pricing seems reasonable compared to the EZ system. I want to head up there and see if I can try one. I am not sure about the CAN integration but I can ask as I'd like to use CAN to get to my ECU. They have a basic kit with prius or chevy cruz electric motors. They also sell components you could probably use in your existing setup, or at least worth the investigation. depending on your ecu you might be able to send a speed signal to automatically increase assist sensitivity under 5mph I would have to fab a mount but that's not a big deal.

Are you doing abs or traction control?

I bought a second hand superformance quick rack a couple months ago. it is only the rack and pinion internals and ancillaries - not the housing. It is sitting in my pile of parts. 308 racks are identical to Pantera so it might be worth looking into what they use for aftermarket alternatives - they tend to modify... perhaps a viable option would be from a Lotus Elise / Exige as they are one of the few modern cars with a manual rack.

I just got a pdm to piggyback on my ecu to run all the car chassis and interior systems.

 

@sltillim - They are pretty reasonable, but I can hook you up for 1/2 that or less

The units I'm specing are not CAN, but the adapter I'm planning would have that option or could just be connected to the 308 speedo wire on the e-gauge cars. I could get a CAN controller though. Yes may ECU will be able to directly control the steering without an adapter either way.

I'm not sure what I want to do with the rack.....right now I'm leaning to just wait until the new PS unit is here and see if there is a less ugly way to install the quickener, then go back to looking at racks if I'm not happy with what I see. The quicker and standard rack means 15Nm from the PS unit, and that means like 25-30A max draw. If I do the fast rack, that doubles. The PS unit will do 46Nm so that is fine, but 65A max draw..... on an 80(85?)A alternator, but its momentary so it doesn't really matter that its pulling from the battery I guess

I'm not messing with ABS but have got the ECU mostly setup to do traction control and will get that working. At 400hp you really won't need TC but I guess its a nice to have.

What stuff are you planning to hook the pdm? Radiator fans is I think the only thing I tied into the ECU so I just ran a wire up to the relay in the panel....at least the only thing the pdms I've looked at would handle. I run most of the gauges from the ECU but I remember not finding the right signals in the pdms I looked at.

 

Yes! I'm interested in the controller and it would need the higher power option - would it have some type of rheostat nob to manually adjust the input? I have not selected an alternator yet but I believe I am going to need near 200A. the stock 360 runs 150A. It's one thing I was planning on spending a little extra on something quality.

I have a cable driven speedo but I would hope I could get a sensor driven one and swap the dino face. Otherwise I'd have to get a full modern set and make custom dials and faces and I don't think I have it in me, right now. I want to keep it stock looking as much as possible. It will be pretty cool to see how close I can get it to 180 mph!!!

between the Nexus R5 and the PDM16, I am hoping to not have any fuses. I want every control running solid state and haltech controlled. No more fuses or relays. Lights, windows, everything.

 

I wasn't planning a manual knob.....We could add that but what do you need a manual knob for if the ECU is controlling it? The adapter box we planned a bluetooth phone add to set it up, like 8 mph points so you can have a nice speed sensitive assist curve to get exactly what you want but the R5 optional outputs can do that as well so I'm not sure what the knob would be needed for?

I'm making do with 80A, 150 you'll have just enough to add electric AC too....200 I guess you never have to thing about it. Like on om car each of the 12 coils draws 6A, the injectors 1A so jus there is 84A...in theory. But the injectors ad max time of about 5ms, the coil dwell is 4ms so in practice its been fine with the 20A fuel pump and 20A fan and headlights and steering and such.....probably just barely but is been fine.

For the speedo, the 360 trans might have a sender? if not your ABS has 4 so the ECU can have mph. Then you just attach a motor to the the dino speedo and have the ECU send a pwm signal to control the motor rpm and the ecu is controlling the mechanical dino gauge. For speed....180 sounds about right for 400hp

For the chassis stuff.....you mean lights and turn signals and all that? That5 is a lot of stuff to sent the ecu that it doesn't need. I googled the pd16, its got 4AN inputs and 4 pulsed inputs that I assume can also read switched....That will get you close I guess.

I'll keep you posted on the PS units.

 

It all makes sense. I thought it might be cool to have a manual take over but, meh, one less thing to worry and the PDM should be able to control it. I will have to source a worthy and powerful ps motor.

QUOTE="mk e, post: 150191618, member: 253"]. I'm making do with 80A, 150 you'll have just enough to add electric AC too....200 I guess you never have to thing about it. Like on om car each of the 12 coils draws 6A, the injectors 1A so jus there is 84A...in theory. But the injectors ad max time of about 5ms, the coil dwell is 4ms so in practice its been fine with the 20A fuel pump and 20A fan and headlights and steering and such.....probably just barely but is been fine..[/QUOTE]
Lots of sensors, dual DBW throttle bodies, coils are 9-16A depending on dwell, electric actuated plenum controls (variable runners and crossover), VVTI Exhaust Cams, electronic brake booster is 15A, ABS (2x 20A), muffler valves, heater, windows, exterior lights interior lights, heater blower, electric AC is a phase 2 project.
The R5 has:

• 4 x 25A (continuous) push-pull PWM capable (5 kHz) outputs (for power to injectors / coils, transbrake, thermofan, fuel pump)
• 12 x 8A (continuous) high side outputs (low speed PWM, 200 Hz) outputs (power to sensors, NOS solenoids, etc)
• 18 x peak/hold injector drivers (can be used as low side drive outputs)
• 12 x low current ignition outputs (can be used as low side drive outputs)
• 8 x low side drive outputs, PWM capable (DPOs)
• 4 x push-pull / h-bridge outputs (8A, PWM capable), eg for electronic throttle
• 23 x 0-5V analog inputs with redundancy for electronic throttle and switchable 5V pullup
• Trigger and home inputs with differential inputs, adjustable thresholds and glitch filters
• 10 x synchronous pulsed inputs, zero crossing or adjustable thresholds - cam sensor inputs, frequency inputs or 0-5V analog inputs
• 2 x onboard wideband controllers, supporting NTK and LSU4.9
• 3 x CAN ports with switchable termination

the PD16 has:

• 10 x High Side Outputs
• 2 x Half Bridge Outputs
• 4 x 25A High Current Outputs
• 8 x Inputs + Dedicated Ignition Switch Input
• Power for Ignition Switch
• Integrated into Haltech CAN Bus Network
• 5V Sensor Supply / Sensor Ground

I hope this is enough but, if needed I can get a second PD16 and expand the system on the same architecture. I'd like to convert as much as I can to CAN. There will probably have to be a couple fuses for the high draw items.

 

WOW!!!

 

It doesn't really matter how many inputs the R5 has if it's mounted in the back. Up front a digital input is on/off. The AN inputs you can use resistors to make 2 or 3 levels.

 

Years ago I did have 2 Austin/Morris mini's (old model) and was convinced those racks are the same.

 

Interesting user name......is there any change a 308 or other ferrari engine powered example is coming? That was basically my dream car (machine?) in HS and I nearly bought one but it never quite worked out.

 

That is what I was thinking too.....but they are 2.7/2.2 turns not 3.2/2.5 which could just be internal spots? Then I was also scared about threads, old English stuff means it could be 3 options so I was scared to just order one.

 

The head gaskets have shipped so a BIG thank you to drhex donating them!

The PS units are ready to ship so they should be here in 2-3 weeks

Our old net set died and Lana got this set on facebook for $100
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I nearly heat stroked myself this weekend setting the posts in the clay and rock that passes for dirt here in PA plus $150 in other materials....so not really sure it was a bargain but my son is thrilled to have it for his birthday party this coming weekend, just need to remove the dangerously unsafe swing set now.

 

That grass looks like fluffy carpet! Nice work!

 

That's all the rain we've had recently, nothing I did i promise.

 

But there's nary a weed in sight!

 

Can't quite make out the lettering on the net, but if it's Park and Sun, that's a quality net. Park and Sun were the go-to nets in all the outdoor tournaments I played in a lifetime ago. A quick glance on-line shows today's prices from $170 - $200, so I'd say fairly bought.
- Dave