Hard to understand how the flaps would have been raised instead of the landing gear. The flaps are next to the throttle on the pedestal and the landing gear is on the front instrument panel. If the configuration was not correct for takeoff they would have got a warning when they spooled up the engines for takeoff. My understanding is that the Captain was also a Training Captain with over 8000hrs.
The Pilot in charge and his 2IC would have been going to get a message away in the seconds available, probable........., their training could be such that it was automatic. To try and diagnos all that would have been happening in the cockpit at that time, in the 30 seconds that they had available, and looking at the video 30 sec is about it, I take my hat off to them.
Karen is wrong (of course) the message was reported when the crash first happened. The pilot said "Mayday, mayday, no engine power".
It looks like the RAT (Ram Air Turbine) was deployed just after rotation, this is automatic when all electrical and Hydraulic is lost. Complete Vapour lock is being looked at for loss of fuel delivery. It was a very very hot day 40deg+ at the terminal and hotter again on the taxiway, this would give some explanation why both engines went out. Either way, the pilots would have been doing everything to find a solution whilst still at the controls I am sure.
Agree re the RAT being out. I’m not convinced re the vapour lock theory though. Worth looking at, of course, but while it was hot it wasn’t THAT hot. These things routinely operate out of the Middle East where it is significantly hotter. The morning I flew out of Dubai the cockpit OAT was showing 52 degrees and that was at 9 o’clock in the morning! Of course I have no idea of 787 systems but for both engines to lose power at exactly the same instant due to vapour lock seems improbable. I’m leaning towards a total electrical failure for some reason and a resultant winding back of both engines to idle. Whatever happened it seems pilot error can be ruled out. The crew found themselves in a nightmare scenario with no way out.
They recon 55 deg plus on the taxi ways, I know each aeroplane has parameters on fuel tank temps. So Vapour lock is improbable but they are not ruling it out, they look at everything I imagine. Loss of power immediately on climb out is every pilots nightmare, and if you count one, one thousand, two one thousand on the video just after rotation there is seconds to process all that is happening.
The point they would have known that the aircraft was not flying and they are now in a 200 ton stone with no way out through no fault of their own... I cannot imagine. Years ago I knew a RAAF Mustang pilot who was in a fully loaded and armed fighter with wing tanks on, suffered a catastrophic seized Merlin just as the wheels folded. Pushed the stick forward skidded along the rest of the runway, passed the piano keys, through trees and the perimeter fence tore the wings off and across the main road. He calmly alighted the cockpit and started walking back via the hole in the fence past his burning wings and various aeroplane parts, to be greeted by the ambulance driver who had been traveling at a great rate of knots, asked,"My god man are you alright?????!! Not a scratch, he said in a very cavalier manner, I really fu#ked that up he added, lighting his cigarette and kept walking.
In 2019 an ANA 787 had an unexpected duel engine shutdown after landing. There is a theory that it might be related to the TCAM (Thrust Control Malfunction Accomodation) system which is intended to shutdown runaway engines on the ground. Its logic should only activate it on the ground with weight on wheels if it senses the thrust lever is at idle but the engine is not. All you need is a short on one wire to screw up the logic and your done.
Latest news on the air India crash ……“Fuel control switches to the engines of an Air India flight that crashed shortly after takeoff, killing 260 people, were moved from the "run" to the "cutoff" position moments before impact, a preliminary investigation report said early Saturday.”
From BBC news: "Audio from the cockpit detailed in the report suggests confusion between the two pilots: in a voice recording, one is heard asking his colleague why he "did the cut-off" - the other pilot replies he did not do so" AI anybody...
Yes, I read that but a report also states that the cut out switches were switched off within a few seconds of each other which indicates that it would be pilot intervention. The position the cut off switches is at the bottom of the pedestal and very difficult to mistake for another switch, they also can’t be accidentally bumped. The switches have to be pulled out of a detent position so it would suggest they were deliberately activated.
Unfortunately, I have to agree. But I’ll wait for the final report to clarify what really happened and why. As an aside, having seen where the switches are and also apparently they don’t have any “smart” system that simply doesn’t allow them to be turned off in a critical stage of flight unless an emergency which calls for them to be switched off is taking place, I can’t help but think both of those things are a mistake from a design perspective. Apparently the Embraer airliners have something which means the fuel cutoff switches are disarmed unless the power levers are pulled back to idle. Seems like a good idea. And in my lowly bizjet, these switches are on the overhead panel, nowhere near anything else that needs to be touched in a critical stage of flight. There is also something else that seems to be repeatedly happening, but I won’t go there as it would not be popular and I have had one or two scotches so I’ll leave it there.
Moments before impact? They need to safeguard these systems from being used in flight. Such a shame and a terrible loss of life, Boeing just being dragged through the mud, mouth open for years now.
Difficult to safeguard, shutting down an engine in flight is not uncommon and is part of normal operating procedure. It happens more often than you think (Engine vibration, excessive temperatures) most of the time the passengers wouldn’t even know it and the crew wouldn’t announce it so not to alarm the passengers.
True, but it shouldn’t be possible during a critical stage of flight such as between V1 and reaching say 1500’ AGL unless something is obviously very wrong - such as a fire - which the aircraft would be well aware of. Aircraft these days are very smart. They know exactly what is going on all the time. A system that simply doesn’t allow fuel to be cutoff when all systems are operating normally seems like a good idea.
