348 Door locking 'fun'...

Hi all,


I recently got a 348 and within a few days, I've had the dreaded 'door dancing'..


I believe this was self inflicted (at least in part) as I pushed the drivers side stalk down whilst in the car. I didn't realise there was an electronic control in the centre console!

It may be pure coincidence, and this was going to happen anyway... So, diagnostics and findings so far;


Locking the drivers door with the key stops the constant opening/closing.

Removing the battery and reconnecting didn’t work

Stripped the drivers door to check everything and grease all the mechanisms etc.

Removed the 15amp fuse from the passengers footwell to see if I could manually open the door without it going up and down constantly

Tried pressing the centre console buttons and trying the door from both the inside and outside

Put the passengers side window down, and used a very strong coat hanger bent a tight bend on the end. Even with a lot of force, I’m unable to pull the stalk up enough to get the door to pop

Tried banging around the latch area from the outside whilst trying the button and inside door handle, a lot..


I’m honestly out of suggestions at this point, as I simply can NOT get the passengers door open. If I could, I might be able to at least inspect properly inside. It almost feels like the cable is too tight, not allowing the stalk to go fully up. I did manage to get some videos, which might better demonstrate how things look, and what is/was going on. Links below…

After many hours of struggling, I’ve ended up leaving it in bits, in hope that someone can point out what I need to do. I even thought about taking the passenger doors side strakes off, but then I was told that I couldn't, because I cannot remove that sides door card to get to the sodding bolts at the front of the door. I can easily remove the 4 allen bolts on the outside. As it happens, I don't believe I'd be able to do much with the side strakes off anyway, so I'm told.


– Drivers door (with fuses and electrical connectors in place)

– Drivers door electrical connectors connected, showing passengers side not opening

– Passengers side, showing what I believe to be the lock in what I THINK should be the open position (I tried hooking both pieces here and pulling up, but not able to move either of them)

– Showing what happens when you push the outside door lock button in. On the drivers side, the metal tab retracts when you let the button back out.

 

If you disconnect the battery and try to unlock the passenger door with the key what happens. Does the door lock knob move up and stay up? If it does, did you try opening the door then?

With the battery disconnected, can you move the door lock knob up and down?

 

I tried disconnecting the battery in the first instance, same thing. The stalk on the passengers side mechanically drops when opened either manually by pulling it up, or via the key.

The door lock knob moves up and down, but it feels like it doesn't go all the way up.

 

Have you tried, while the battery is disconnected, to hold the knob firmly up with your fingers while trying to open the door from inside or from outside. Have you tried the same while holding the knob up with the key?

 

I have, still the same

I have also removed the door locking fuse in the passengers footwell (the 15amper) which technically does the same thing. If you watch one of the vids above, you'll see that when I turn the key, it SHOULD stay up, but it drops back down. That isn't due to electrical current, that's just under its own weight.

 

Let's run over the basics to see if we an find a clue:

Here's a photo of the lock in the unlocked position:

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When you push down on the button (stalk), it tries to move the rod on the right of the photo downwards (but it's fighting other parts of the locking mechanism. The mechanism is not a pivot, but a slider. When the slider moves under normal circumstances, say, with the key, the action mechanically extends the motorised actuator plunger. At around 2/3rds of motion, a microswitch inside the motor actuator is triggered and the system assits with the downwards motion by electrically extending the actuator. The passenger's door is also commanded locked (electrically).

You can probably still lock the door without electrical assist, but it is difficult.

Do you mean the button/stalk drops down when you unlock the door? I'm trying to figure out what keeps the button up. I assume it's a combination of friction from the geared mechanical internals of the motor actuator and key barrel friction which normally supports the weight of the button and the slider... or perhaps part of the latch mechanism. Note that you can't damage the actuator by moving it forcefully. However, as these actuators age, the gears can crumble and cause the actuator not to move properly.

Does the motor actuator plunger physically extend to the locked position when you lock the door with the key?

I'm not sure if you forcing the button down is the cause of this issue. In the first video are you trying to unlock the door? The actuator is already in the unlocked position. When you try to lock the door with the key, is the button/stalk also moving down (initially)?

In the second video, with the driver's door electrics disconnected, the Door ECU no longer receives an earth signal from the driver's actuator's internal position sensor in either the extended or the retracted position, so that may be confusing the system... or the issue may actually be with the passenger doorlock

Other possible causes:

Unfortunately, the connector wiring at the door hinge is very fragile and tends to break causing all kinds of issues.

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If you open the door and trigger the doorlatch mechanically to the latched position (with a screwdriver or similar). Does the key unlocking behaviour change when you shake the door wiring harness?

 

As pushing the door button doesn't backdrive the interior handle, I'm not sure if a stuck cable would affect the button operation (???). The issue would have to be in the latch assembly itself (or the linkage between the button and the latch assembly).

 

Too many words to read but if locks are dancing that happens when the mechanism binds and the weak motors cannot move to the position needed for sensor to say I'm open or closed. Locks confuse and dance. Try disconnecting motor from linkage and get functional locking at motor level albeit unhooked. If still dance get new motor. If dance solved reconnect linkage so it is passive and does not overpower the motor. Make sure electrical connections are clean in door

 

You may still have difficulties with actuator plunger ~ door latch interference. If so, you will have to remove the actuator to test it.

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I see new actuators are not overly expensive from Eurospares

https://www.eurospares.co.uk/Ferrari/348/348_(2.7_Motronic)/PartDiagrams/120/Doors_-_Opening_Control_and_Hinges?ref=034

+VAT, of course

I wouldn't go aftermarket. I tried compare one aftermarket brand with the OEM version and the internal switch trigger point was different. I can't remember if the mounting holes or plunger throw were different.

 

In your second video, it appears that the door lock knob does not drop down by its own weight (not really possible anyway) but is pulled down by the door locking motor. You need to make sure there is no power to the motor before you attempt manual unlocking. If the door opening push-knob freely goes in when pressed, it means that the lock mechanism is in the "locked" position.

 

You're right, that's the wrong video, sorry. Since that video, I have removed the 15a fuse that controls door locking (also tried battery did connected) and the same thing happens, just not as rapidly. The stalk goes up, but then it falls under its own weight, or at best stays up a short while then drops.

It does seem very coincidental that it happened since I pushed down the driver's stalk (I'll never do that again..) and it's just out things out of sync.

This might help diagnostics, but now the window motor also won't go down on the driver's side! It went down about 2cm and then stopped. Both issues at the same time seems HIGHLY unlikely!

 

The problem I have, is that I cannot get the passengers side open to do what you've suggested, as I can't get the door cards off whilst it's shut due to the screws being side mounted on the door.

 

It is possible that the linkage that moves the door opening tab on the lock mechanism has disconnected itself so the door locking knob, or the key, cannot move the door opening tab into position where the push-button can actuate it. If you can see the door locking mechanism from above (when the window is down) try to somehow catch the plate that is carrying the door opening tab and pull it up (power to the lock off).

Door push-button and door opening tab:
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Plate carrying the door opening tab (moves up and down to unlock and lock):
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Hi Luke

I'm afraid it's not the best video in the world, but I hope this gives you some idea of how the mechanism works.

The first 15 seconds show the operation when using the internal door pull, and the last 15 seconds shows what happens when you are pressing the button from the outside (you can see the plunger moving the lever).

 

Cheers Jeff, appreciate that

So with the door locked OR unlocked, should that bronze tab go back and forth, following the push button? On the passengers side, the pivot is in the open position constantly, as per the screenshot attached
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I'm afraid I can't quite remember, as I made that video years ago! LOL

I remember disassembling everything and lubricating all the moving parts I could access.

There was also the added complication that there is a small part inside the lock barrel that breaks and causes problems, too, but you can buy them from Hills Engineering.

Whereabouts in the UK are you? If you close enough, I can give you a hand if you wish



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I have reached out to Hills tech to see if they have a clue, and possibly buy some parts required. If that ends up being a dead end, I might just take you up on that!

 

Just realised I was wrong in my previous post about what part of the lock mechanism is moved when locking and unlocking it. This picture shows which part is moved up and down to enable or disable the actuation of the door opening tab by the door push-button:

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If the door lock motor (while cycling up-down) still operates the part marked with the blue arrows, I would also try the following "procedure" (power connected to the door lock): keep you thumb on the push-button; turn the key to "unlock" and quickly press the push-button while the knob is still up.

 

Sorry, I'm a bit confused which side you are referring to. Is this to be done on the passengers side, the one that is stuck shut..?

Some posts are suggesting that whichever door is giving you issues, it's usually the other door that is the actual problem, lol! Luckily the window goes down on the passengers side, so I can get a long hook down to this mechanism. I did try pulling up on this very hard, and it wouldn't go up at all. It seems to be, like this must be fully up, as the pivot then pushes the tab on the left towards the door button.

If you look at this video - - You can see the part you are referring to. It's in a vertical slot, and no matter which way I turn the key in the passengers door, this remains at the BOTTOM of the slot like in the video.

Because the window now won't go down on the drivers side, I'm unable to see in to confirm, but this logic has to be correct, as lock/unlock should move to the top or bottom fully. Hope that makes sense!

 

No, not at all. We are just saying that any door can cause locking/unlocking issues on both doors, but after watching your video, it's clear that the driver's side actuator is not extending for some reason.

When the actuator moves down, it should
1) drag the door lock button down
2) move the exterior key lock to the lock position with the white links
3) inihibit the exterior door pushbutton from operating the latch.

How does the last item, I'm not sure. That part of the systems seems to be in the locked/latched position, whereas everything else is indicating unlocked.

Because your actuator is not moving the sliding mechanism, there is either:
1) broken actuator gearing or
2) something mechanical jamming the mechanism

Do you think you bent the lock button/stalk rod and it's now jamming on something. The way you describe it, though, it's not attached to anything. It just falls when you release it.

Just to confirm, you haven't got a Spider?

 

I am referring to your passenger door for which your second original video shows that you could unlock it with the key but the door locks itself when you release the key:



I was suggesting that you try, during the brief period when the knob is up, to quickly press the door push-button and see if the door opens. As I mentioned above, you should do this with the power to the door connected.

I can see in the video that you, after turning the kay to "unlock" position, immediately release the key after which the knob is pulled down by the lock motor. What happens if, after unlocking with the key, you don't release the key but keep it in the "unlocked" position? If the knob stays up, then you may not need to rush pressing the door opening push-button.

 

Thanks for the replies btw, I truly appreciate it.

That would make sense, because this all started directly after I manually pushed down the stalk on the drivers side. I was in traffic and just had a mad moment where I thought I'd check to see if I could lock from the inside. I don't believe this was extreme coincidence, as it was working fine for a few days..

Could it be worth trying to forcefully pull the actuator plunger down when it's struggling, but only whilst the car is unlocked, so that everything matches? This would make sense as I guess I inadvertently caused it to be de-synced from the other components. Lesson learned to only use the centre console button designed for lock, or the key from the outside! Would manually pressing it down cause this issue, or is it just really bad luck on an already temperamental system?

With regards to the lock button/stalk, that's definitely not bent, as it operates perfectly and freely whilst power is disconnected, and key entry works fine. Thanks for the tip on the actuator. Just to confirm, in the attached photo, that part circled is the actuator, and it should be fully extended when the door is unlocked?

As for the 'falling' of the stalk, that is ONLY on the passengers side, the drivers side works perfectly with the key, in both directions. Locking and unlocking is fine on the drivers side, but with the power connected, that's when I get the door dancing. The passengers side stalk goes up and down, whilst the drivers side remains up, but with a clearly struggling actuator. I appreciate this post is confusing, as I'm talking about both doors at times.

p.s. It's a TS, not a Spider

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I tried holding the key to the left (unlock) with both power on, and power off. If I let go of the key with power OFF, the stalk will drop back down under its own weight. I have to keep the key physically turned to the left in order for the stalk to remain up. I tried the outside button and the inside door handle MANY times, with no success (power on AND power off).

If there is power to the door, I have to hold the key quite tight to the left to stop the stalk from going back down. If all is working well, should you be able to operate both doors opening from the passengers side just out of interest..?

 

No, that's the strange part. As you can see, with the lock button down (aka lock), the whole sliding part of the lock mechanism should go in the same direction (including the actuator). Something is inhibiting the downward motion.

As far as I can recall, you can pull on the actuator plunger and physically extend it even when it is unpowered, so, on the surface, the actuator shouldn't be inhibiting the downward motion (just making it a little harder to lock the door with the key with no electrics available). There seems to be something else mechanical inhibiting the downward motion.

I'm wondering if this part underneath the sliding mechanism is jammed (already) in the locked position.

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What I'll do, is record a video from my phone from inside the door, now that I have the 15amp fuse removed from the footwell. This has disabled the power locking on both sides. This should then show us what is going on mechanically when I open the door.

Just to confirm, I have zero issues opening the drivers door with OR without power. The only thing that happens, is the constant buzzing and struggling of the actuator when unlocked. I fully expected I wouldn't be able to open the drivers door, but the stalk always remains up when it's unlocked.

If I lock the drivers door, it stops going crazy and remains silent. It also is genuinely locked, so the button won't open the door.

The other bizarre thing, is that I could stop the constant actuator attempts by putting the passengers side window down to a specific point (around 3/4 down) LOL.

I'll upload said video as soon as I can for you, possibly tomorrow night now.