Ferrari 849 Testarossa Styling

On the open road ??? Let's be serious, it doesn't exist, or I suggest you enter the WEC championship and receive money !

 

I'd rather drive an older Ferrari at 9/10's to be honest. Better sound and overall sensation because I could never drive a new Ferrari at 9/10's on the street. I'd either be in a morgue or in jail. Heck I don't think most people could drive anything over 450 hp 9/10's on the street without getting into some serious trouble. At a recent FCA event a couple of years ago in the Blue Ridge Mountains, I had no problem keeping up with an F8 while driving my 458 due to the course (twisty mountain roads). On the highway, I'd have no chance but that's not really as thrilling to me.

 

One thing Id call out is the idea of bringing Pininfarina back. As noted, they were sold. And that was after FDC seemingly got most of their good talent. When modern Pininfarina was given the chance to design a new sports car, they designed a nice, if a bit forgettable shape that is a bit of a rip off of the LaFerrari, Pista, McLaren 720. This is hardly cutting edge or ground breaking design. And because it is an EV, they have greater design freedom. Contrast to what FDC has done, surely some hits and some misses, we each probably put different cars on each list, but, they’ve done designs for a decade now, and I dont think any of them are actually as derivative as the Pininfarina.

 

Jerry, regarding the current Pininfarina, I completely agree that it can never return to Ferrari, as it no longer even resembles in terms of "savor-faire" the one we knew in the past under the same name. During the little over a decade of FDC's existence, in my modest opinion there are two phases. The first, more derivative, in which, for example, the front-engine V12 models up to the 812C are aesthetically and technologically evolutions of their predecessors. Something similar seems to have happened in the mid-engine group up to the F8. However, from then on, a reversal is indeed noticeable, as some new models derive little or nothing from their predecessors. This is the case of the 12C, whose design is completely innovative and bears no resemblance to its modern predecessors. Regarding the 296, there are still some aesthetic traits of its predecessors, but generally, it is a car with very different lines. Also aesthetically, the 849 breaks completely with the SF90. On the other hand, we can glimpse in the lines of the Amalfi a kinship with the Roma.

 

This is subjective, of course. The new Ferrari is clearly faster, better engineered and better built. But the older car are engaging in different ways - rowing your own gears, mechanical steering, different sounds and smells, etc.

And on the street, you can spend more time approaching 9/10s in the older cars. The old adage, better to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. That's worth something.

I'm not arguing that the old cars offer a better experience. It's different. Both are great.

This is a pretty good illustration that performance is not the only thing that matters to the experience. A modern Civic may be as fast as a 355. But, you'll have a lot more fun coaxing that performance out of the Ferrari.

 

The point is that, until very recently, performance was a very exclusive attribute. Engineering, performance, and emotions went hand in hand. That's why Enzo was so focused on performance: along with performance, all other attributes came.

What's happening today is that electrification is "trivializing" performance, so that there are Chinese electric cars with 2,000+ hp. If things continue as they are, in 5 years there will be Chinese sedans doing 0-200 km/h in 6 seconds.

So, IMO, Ferrari should position itself on the concepts of "sportiness," "sensation," and "art." The issue is no longer performance, but how that performance is delivered.

Weight reduction can be a great demonstration of cutting-edge technology and technological prowess. Much more than a childish "hp wars."

Why does a brand with such a legacy (and cars that have always been collectible) need to have turbo-hybrid "units"? And two or three screens in the interior? Chinese cars are heavily hybridized/electric and full of screens.

The Ferrari must be different from the ordinary.

A naturally aspirated engine, whether V6, V8, or V12, has a linearity and sound (I'm talking about character, not volume) that turbos lack.

In my view, a new naturally aspirated engine (with any number of cylinders), with a slightly lighter hybridization (less complexity and lighter weight), would be a good way to begin this repositioning. See, a N/A car with a mild hybrid is much more manageable than a turbo with a heavy hybrid, and therefore requires fewer nannies to control it (less complexity, less weight, more emotion).

And this doesn't mean becoming a "Lotus," but rather it would bring back a "machinery" feel and collectibility to regular production Ferraris, without neglecting evolution.

Just my opinion. I know many here think otherwise.

 

An excellent post, and I completely agree that we've reached a point of no return where performance is no longer an exclusive attribute of an elite, including Ferrari. Therefore, as you rightly pointed out, the insatiable desire among Ferrari and other manufacturers specially for new hybrid models to have ever more stratospheric power outputs no longer makes sense and is a completely lost battle, given that today a Chinese electric vehicle with 3,000 hp already reaches the incredible speed of 472 km/h (293 mph) and costs half as much as the SF90.

I still remember the times when Rolls-Royce never indicated the engine power output of its models and even use to write in the presentation brochures simply "Power: ENOUGH." While this may seem snobbish, it is perhaps the most accurate way to define the ideal power output for any Ferrari Supercar. In other words, power should neither be excessive nor less than desirable, but rather the sufficient to provide the best possible driving experience. Additionally, from an emotional and sensory perspective, we also know that there is a huge difference when that "enough" power is generated by a V12 NA or an electrified twin-turbo V6 or V8.

 

Not sure how you define better experience. Visually the older are classic and timeless. Having a faster 0 to 100 time is boring to me. Teslas are boring. What the car looks like is like seeing a great plate of food. You first eat with your eyes. It gets the appetite going. I have gone back to get into older vehicles because they are icons and are deliberately more engaging than an electric and haptic style car that sounds like crap. LaF was a fantastic and groundbreaking style change. We never see that anymore. Just reimagined off shelf items. Both in visual appearance and now in name. It should be blasphemy to call a car with this engine a Testarossa.

 

Totally right

 

D’Accord


But, I would add that they have to come out with new designs, thats how they sell new cars, and thats also how they keep the old ones desirable in the market place. If they kept with the same styling conventions they would be another company.

Lost in my point about Pininfarina, but I desire to also make this point- you have to also remember that FDC was created by LDM and Ferrari many years prior to their going public, so it is not due to having gone public. And I truly admire LDM and appreciate everything he did for Ferrari, and even the broader world of sports cars, by being atop that world, but he was the man at the top when they made the decision to create their own FDC. And I would argue it was the right decision. Pininfarina had many struggles, and it would be a huge strategic blunder to allow one of the most critical assets of the company (design) to be exposed to what we might call counter party risk.

However, you could argue that having given public has forced them to add new models, try to find new niches in the market place. It used to be a matter of survival for our beloved Ferrari. It’s a distant memory now, but for a long time, it really was like that. So things change, but also, the more things change, the more they stay the same. What sells sports cars is brand, styling, design, and, performance.

As I see it- they successfully, carefully, and somewhat conservatively carried over the PF themes into the F12tdf, 458 Speciale, and onward until we get to the SF90 and beyond. The new design motifs were jarring. They changed the headlights from the vertical style to horizontal, they changed the front end of the car, and doubled down with what I would call the bow, because it seems Manzoni liked the flying spaceship he drew many years ago, I can also see this in the LaFerrari front lower section, it is far more successful there. And then we have the changing the rear lights… they went from 4 circles, to something that you might call a squircle (square+circle). Whether 2 or 4, a classic Ferrari trait is the round tail lights. I think the mistake here was they were not bold enough, without too much effort you can still see the 458 design beneath. To my eyes this was difficult, because sometimes I see something new, but sometimes I see something old. And we go on, until we get to the Dodici Cilindri, which introduces a new design theme and styling motifs. I dont think its controversial to simply state they can’t stay still. We can debate if this is the right direction, or if we like the choices they made. But I don’t think its debatable that they need to innovate and change the designs to stay relevant.

 

I don't understand - Porsche GT2RS hybrid / LaFerrari F80 / 918 / P1 / W1 - Porsche made the mistake of going all electric cost them billions, they are now reverting as is Ferrari. What is wrong with hybrid - they all need to make the next generation faster - that is how they sell cars, looks aside it's about performance.
Race on Sunday sell on Monday, it's how ever factory that sells cars people do not need but want.
If you and others prefer looks over performance - there are about a zillion cars to go buy sitting on dealer lots and personal ads.
Try buying a new hyper car / Ferrari / Porsche the line is long - a regular production Ferrari has not been a collectible in decades, meaning Ferrari does not care how many regular high production Ferrari's someone owns - they care how many special edition Ferrari's one owns and that's who gets the newest LE - VIP it's the ones who live the lifestyle, racing F1 attendance etc - it's a reciprocated commitment. Every high end business caters to their top clients - watches purses cars etc.

You are asking for them to 360 the most successful retail business model in the world.
Why not just switch to a brand you feel is doing what you want.

 

I don't want to come off as argumentative, but the choice is not as binary as this. You can have both, but its more than either of those two attributes.

CS, 16M, Speciale, F12 TDF, Competizone and the Icona series comes to mind as collectibles.

Ferrari is no where near the most successful retail business model in the world. It's not even in the top 50. Great company, no doubt, but there are retail companies you may not even know that make a **** ton more money than Ferrari does.

 

I know you're holding on to this "wrong " idea , because it's not the VIPs who keep Ferrari alive. Out of 14,000 cars a year, they don't even have to buy 1,500/2,000 all together !
It's the remaining 12,000 that keep Ferrari alive !

 

Also
LaFerrari and its Aperta
F60 America
J50
Sergio (though very limited)

Just rattling things off that come quickly to mind. There will be others, other SP cars, like the SP, I forget the number, but the yellow one they showed at Daytona in 2016, the Deborah, the Omologato. They have made some really cool cars, but what is central to them all is the engine The engine should remain the focus. Which is why I would not advise Ferrari ever build a car where the engine is not the focus. (*engine is combustion; as opposed to motor, which can be powered by a magnetic field to spin.)

 

Did I speak out against hybridization in my post?
I talked about hybridization being a bit milder, combined with a N/A engine.
You mentioned the LaFerrari, the upcoming 992 GT2 RS hybrid, and the 918 Spyder.
These are, in my opinion, three examples of hybridization done right: the LaFerrari has a KERS system combined with a wonderful N/A engine.
The 992.2 Turbo S has 701 hp, with only 70 coming from the electric motor. A much less invasive hybridization.
The 918 has a bigger hybridization, but combined with a N/A V8.
Formula 1, world premier motorsports category, is in advanced deliberation about switching from a V6 turbohybrid to a V8 N/A hybrid.

Did I say that? I didn't know good looks was antagonistic to performance.

Maybe my concept of collectible is different from yours.
For me, "collectible" is the opposite of a "consumable item".
An F12 Berlinetta, in my opinion, is a collectible. It's beautiful, has a beautiful engine (machinery), and I know that in 20 years it will be working perfectly, if well maintained, and will remain desirable.
Will a complex turbohybrid be working and desirable in 20 years? I can't say.

I don't see it that way. Ferrari already had a N/A with KERS (LaF), and in a few years Formula 1 will have a V8 N/A hybrid, which will possibly set new standards for road cars.

 

Ferrari has not been bothering with top speed since the Enzo (all subsequent hypercars had the same quoted top speed, even though in practice it may differ). The firm launches cars with higher overall performance with every passing generation though, as do all of its competitors. That Chinese car you keep mentioning is slower around the Ring than a 911 GT3 despite its huge top speed (many say that the claimed power output is also false and the power consumption at that speed would drain a full battery within 2-3 minutes anyway). Performance still matters as it sells cars and indicates progress. Ferraris have always been about performance after all, as per the Founder's decree.

 

To begin with, regarding the Chinese car, I never made any reference to its performance, which I know is a fallacy, but only to its power and top speed. What I simply stated was that in direct competition for maximum power (hp) and top speed, any Ferrari with a combustion engine, even a super electrified one, will probably never, ever, achieve numbers approaching the 3,000 hp and 472 km/h (293 mph) top speed of the Chinese car.
I don't know what the future will hold, but currently Ferrari has no problem whatsoever selling all the cars produced, regardless their performance and aesthetics being better or worse.

 

I believe the word they used was "adequate"

 

When I wrote the post I thought the word was Enough because the presentation brochures I refered to were not written in English and I made a kind of translation. Afterwards I checked and I realized the correct word is “adequate”. You are absolutely right.

 

Adequate for an elderly gentleman (even though the Silver Seraph's manual quoted the actual power as far as I can remember), certainly not for their young issues...

 

Hello
Does anyone have OFFICIAL LITHOGRAPHS of the 849 Testarossa and 849 Testarossa Spider...

 

I agree, you can't say about an F12 vs hybrid- yet the warranty is longer on hybrid so maybe... they feel they have improved.
F12 collectible - that's great and you should enjoy it but F12tdf sells for multiples.
918 LaF P1 - early hybrid batteries are failing 150 - 200k. They fail frequently and it's a huge issue -value went up but engineering and performance are poor.
Put an SF90XX against an LaF - in every fashion Ferrari is improving R&D
Care are made faster - that means better engineering reliability and design - it's how they sell cars not just Ferrari but every brand.

Enjoy your cars - maybe let the new owners do the same. If your cars will remain desirable and the prior decades are desirable why now are the new ones - not desirable. That's my point.
Hybrid is not invasive - try driving one, it simply fills the gaps and offers hard acceleration - there is nothing about SF90 296 invasive, it's not like an old turbo or old transmission that upsets the car under hard acceleration.

 

If money was no object, which of these two would you buy?

 

LaF all day

 

My thoughts looong time now...