Cars & Designs

An interesting architecture discussion emerged on 'Wither Vintage Ferrari Values'. It seems that there are a lot of designers and design interested folks out there who are drawn to Ferraris by their designs as much as anything else.

So I propose that this thread be focused on thoughts, observations and creative impluses that involve cars. Architects, artists and industrial designers have long been in influenced by cars. While Ferraris are great design sources this discussion need not be limited to them.

My first question: What Ferarris have influenced other designs?

Jon

 

John Vardanian's PF Coupe is a car I've long admired. Somehow it's design and color seem perfect for each other. The following link (http://www.autocollections.com/index.cfm?key=3293&action=details&tab=juke) was just sent. Note the Continental's similarity to the Continental Mark 2. The design similarities can't be an accident, they are too strong. Henry Ford long admired Ferrari. He owned the last 212 Barchetta (a 1951 I believe). Anybody know more about this?

Jon
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Actually, as a kid I was dreaming to become a car designer, and settled to be an architect. I was a teenager when Lamborghini started up in the 60's and that started a car passion that has not let up ever since. Ironically, I have not owned an L car (yet).

 

The Lamborghini Marzal. I spent a lot of time with that car when it came to the Netherlands in the early seventies.
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Bill Ford's interest in Ferrari is well illustrated in his Barchetta. This car (#0253 EU) is shown in 'Making a Difference' v.2 pg 322. Anselmi and Massini write that the car was designed by Touring and that its first owenr was and Italian, but say nothing about the origin of the design. The American influence is clear but seems mis-placed and fetish like. Note the chrome rings, exhaust location, fins, double hood scoops, windshied, simplified over all shapes.... Anybody know this story?
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The most recent T-Bird has an egg crate grill that reminds me of early Ferraris. A 456 Ferrari had to be Photoshopped to dome with the Tiburon.

 

Wow Rijk - this car is new to me please tell us more!

Jon

 

One of the classic designs is the 1964 Ferrari GTO. While many cars suffer over time and need to be restored; much is often lost by the restoration. A new front end that does not stay true to the shape and style of the original is a failure. By making subtle design changes it completely destroys the 'look' of the car when it was new! The 'one off' character of a Ferrari speciale is seldom captured by a rebody; no matter how good the re-design is. Timeless designs should be left alone and merely used for inspiration...
CH

 

If this car is older, it sure looks like AC Bristol copied it which then later became a Cobra.

 

Rijk - I drew a lot of cars as a kid too. My father had a XK150 when I was a boy in the early 60's. So my first focus was on Jags. But we also restored Model Ts and early Buicks then. My first car was a 15 Ford touring - it took 4 years to restore. Finished it the summer after graduating from high school. While working on cars of various years and makers as a teen I became fascinated in their evolving engineering and design. The collaborations required between stylists and engineers have always been especially interesting to me. Somehow I never considered being a car designer. Don't really know why, architecture just seemed to have an even stronger pull.

Jon

 

Ron - Yes, teh AC Bristol has great similarities with the standard barchetta as well. Especially at the front, but also the top profile. This is one of the most classic designs of the period. It was also the base for the Cobra.
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copies are seldom better visually than the original but the 289 cobra and its immediate predecessor ac are imho better looking than the original ferrari design.

the pf coupe it seems took a lot in the roofline especailly from the earlier lincoln design.

but the list of cars that copied ferrari designs is almost endless. starting with the corvette. the original design and the second version borrow heavily from ferrari desgins along with the 55 chebby sedan front end. the second version of the corvette borrows from the ingrid bergman ferrari. the third version of the corvette is not ferrari derived. bill mitchell didn't need to copy apparently. the next version of the vette borrowed heavily from the 64 gto. the vega sedan is a gte scaled down. the later monza versions borrow heavily from the ferrari 2+2 365 second version. all camaros derive heavily from ferraris.

and if you go beyond ferraris the cross pollination is vast. the sunbeams and all late fifties alfas borrow from the 53 studie.

the 74 bmw bavaria nose and tail ape the 65 corvair.

and on and on.

all good clean fun.

i am surprised ferrari never complained about chebby's stealing so many of their designs.

of course the split nose pontiacs come from the sharknose ferrari f1 car, and all that followed from pontiac for many many years.

tom w

 

Hi Jon,

They are both pretty designs, but here's an exercise...

Stare at the Lincoln for about a minute without moving away your eyes. Then shift your site to the PF Coupe. It's strange, but to me, it's like a sudden relief of stress. It's like entering a silent room after being in a noisy place for a while.

john

 

John - I can't agree more. The PF Coupe is a much more advanced design. While the Ferrari is merging traditional elegance forward with the simplification of later cars. The Lincoln is over detailed like older cars. Ford's barchetta is similarly fussy.

Compare the details on the sides; the Lincoln has a crease, the PF is smooth. Look too at the top to the fenders. The PF has one arching line from front to rear, the Lincoln is stepped.. Similar fussy details are found at the front of the Lincoln. Its interesting to think of the upcoming Kennedy Lincolns and the 63 Cad. Its clear that the later Lincoln was based on the Mark 2. It takes that long for US designers to catch on to the fact that fussy styling is a thing of the past.

Automobile magazine writes:
The 1961 Lincoln was designed by Elwood Engel. Elwood Engel’s staff had just developed a Ford Thunderbird model that picked up on themes from the Continental Mark II. Ford president Robert McNamara happened upon it, and he was so taken that he asked Engel to create a four-door to be the new Lincoln. Two weeks later it was done, and it beat out a rival worked up by Lincoln studio chief Gene Bordinat, who attempted to maintain continuity with the huge, garish ’58–’60 models. Engel’s car went into production almost unchanged, won an Industrial Design Institute award, and established Lincoln as a design leader for the first time in decades.
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those lincolns were some of the finest looking big cars ever built imho. very european in their style.

they drove very nicley too.

i had a 64 four door for a while. drove very well......

except past a gas station.

tom w

 

The Lincoln MKII is one of the best designs ever to come out of Detroit...an elegant and refined rolling statement of wealth. I don't consider it over-detailed; it's a big car and has just the right amount. The PF coupe is much smaller and the ultra-clean shape works better than it would on the Mark II.

I've always noticed a similarity in frontend treatments with the MKII, PF coupe, and 250 GTE/330 America.

My college architectural design training was based around early European modernist work, particularly that of Le Corbusier. Life experience was growing up from an early age in Dallas neighborhoods...Lakewood and Highland Park...with many fine homes designed in a wide range of traditional styles, built from the early 1900's through late 1940's...I used to walk the streets looking at houses, and would come home and sketch up my own designs, but never consciously thought about going into architecture until I was 21 or 22.

I decided early-on to do only residential work. There's been a huge revival in traditional styles in the last 25 years; in 1979 when I was offered a job with a firm that did both large commercial work and traditionally-styled homes for the wealthy clients who commissioned the commercial work, I jumped...I was the only recent-grad ('77) jobseeker they had interviewed who was interested in assisting one of the partners with these houses...it was a great fit for both of us. Anyway, to cut it short that was the beginning and I've always worked in the traditional-revival area. That's what local market here in Dallas, where I spent my entire active career, demands...I love it as well. I do regret passing over available opps to work in more progressive design firms, but...not that much.

Of course, I was into cars from early childhood...in the genetic code, I guess.

When it comes to cars and architecture...I am much more attracted to the pre-1970 area of automotive design, as I am to the earlier periods of architecture, and am fascinated with the vast amount of creativity in the product that actually made it onto the road in that era.

The era of automotive design that started, for example, post-Ferrari Daytona and Lambo Miura leaves me cold for the most part, and I consider those two design examples to be only marginal aesthetically, the Miura getting the edge...

In cars, as in buildings, extra detail or embellishment is fine IMO as long as its not overdone and/or poorly executed.

Regarding Ferraris, I own an early Series I 330 2+2...most of you will probably think I have very bad taste but I prefer the 4-headlight version of this model.

 

really comparing the lincoln to the pf coupe is apples and oranges.

the lincoln has fenders that were stamped out and could hold creases that the ferrari builders would not be able to consider... so such detail as is on the lincoln, simply wouldn't have worked even if they had wanted it.

a totally simple sided car might not have worked visually on the mark II as it did on the pf simply due to scale.

and although i prefer the two headlight version of the 330 i don't find the four light version as bad as many seem to think.

i wouldn't mind being seen in one.

tom w

 

GTSguy
- My father was an architect, and I grew up "helping" him on his drawings. However I am studying Automotive design, funny how things turn out sometimes.

I would love to someday design a modern 250gt/Lusso, as I think they're beautiful cars.


Andy

 

I can't believe that anybody would consider the old Lincoln Continental as a great design. It's just a giant slab sided box. If I remember correctly, you couldn't even get the convertible in a 2 door.

 

I have never seen a facelift that would look better than the original design - and 330 GT is NOT an exception! Best wishes, Kare

 

believe it.

i am for sure not alone.

a four door convertible is a rare commodity in the modern era. it has a lot of panache!

and though the lincoln is a huge heavy car, it is relatively compact especially in the way it drives, for a large american car of the era. it drives surprisingly "small".

i love the fiat topolinos from the thirties too.

nothing wrong with ecclectic taste, imho.

i like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and steak (not together), but i wouldn't want to eat just one or the other for every meal.

tom w

 

I don't mind at all...that makes two of us at least.

I can't think of a Ferrari production-series model that is just plain ugly...although there were some very strange big-designer-name one-offs, esp in the 50's and 60's.

Comparing 60's 2+2's:

The 250 GTE undoubtedly the purest and most refined design...it evokes a sense of repose, a gentleman's car.

The 330 2+2 has some rough edges but is a more aggressive-looking car, especially in 4 headlight config...IMO it's Ferrari's contribution to the 60's musclecar genre, in appearance and driving characteristics.

The 365 2+2 edges back toward aesthetic purity, an extra-ordinary high-production Gran Turismo. Loosely compared, it's Ferrari's closest counterpart to the MK II...a big sports-luxury cruiser with great styling.

 

Hi Scott, my responses after your words...

The Lincoln MKII is one of the best designs ever to come out of Detroit...The PF coupe is much smaller and the ultra-clean shape works better than it would on the Mark II. / Agreed!

I've always noticed a similarity in frontend treatments with the MKII, PF coupe, and 250 GTE/330 America. / Another interesting observation. I agree, perhaps this is PF's closest follow up to the Coupe. But I prefer the Coupe's lines and scale..... something quite sweet in this design.

My college architectural design training was based around early European modernist work, particularly that of Le Corbusier. / Scott I share this interest as well. Have you visited any of his buildings? I am going to take this up in the other thread.....

Life experience was growing up from an early age in Dallas neighborhoods...Lakewood and Highland Park.../ Cool

I decided early-on to do only residential work. There's been a huge revival in traditional styles / This is a unique architectural service. I prefer doing modern designs, but highly respect the talent to do good traditional styles. I had two such jobs in LA several years ago. Between the overly involved clients and the design challenge.... it was no cake walk! One wanted a 'mediteranian' but didn't have a clue what this was, except that he liked the classic Beverly Hills examples. But it was a remodel so there were a lot of compromises. I pushed for a culturally specific design so we went Spanish, imported a lot of tiles.... THe other was for a neighbor of this client who was from Vietnam. He wanted a Vietnam style French Chateau! Didn't have much to go on, but dang, there really is such a thing!


When it comes to cars and architecture...I am much more attracted to the pre-1970 area of automotive design, as I am to the earlier periods of architecture, and am fascinated with the vast amount of creativity in the product that actually made it onto the road in that era. / I agree about the cars The sports cars of the 50s and 60s are a special thing. Also love really early cars and cars of the 30s. Re. the architecture I lean more toward modern work but like lots of stuff - the quirkier the better.

Regarding Ferraris, I own an early Series I 330 2+2...most of you will probably think I have very bad taste but I prefer the 4-headlight version of this model. / You're right, I'll go for the 2 light version myself.... (even though they dopn't provide enough light!)

Jon

 

Yes Tom - these remain one of the best examples of American automotive design and engineering. The detailing is in perfect proportion to the car. Especially like the chrome at the top of the fender and smooth sides. Rode around in a couple when they were new. They were quite well built cars. Had a (metallic pink) 60 Sedan de Ville for a while too - it was a lot of fun. But I think that the Lincoln was a better built car.

Jon

 

Tom - I love to compare 'apples and oranges' - think its the best way to learn new perspectives and foundation for excellent innovations... Design is like humor. The best jokes acheive laughs by revealing insights through mixing contexts. So too design.

Speaking of jokes, this one just came in....

'Three women go down to Mexico one night to celebrate college graduation, get drunk, and wake up in jail, only to find that they are to be executed in the morning, though none of them can remember what they did the night before.

The first one, a redhead, is strapped in the electric chair and is asked if she has any last words. She says, "I just graduated from Brigham Young University and believe in the almighty power of God to intervene on the behalf of the innocent." They throw the switch and nothing happens. They all immediately fall to the floor on their knees, beg for forgiveness, and release her.

The second one, a brunette, is strapped in and gives her last words. "I just graduated from the Harvard School of Law and I believe in the power of justice to intervene on the part of the innocent." They throw the switch and again, nothing happens. Again they all immediately fall to their knees, beg for forgiveness and release her.

The last one (you know it), a blonde, is strapped in and says, "Well, I'm from the University of Texas and just graduated with a degree in Electrical Engineering, and I'll tell ya right now, ya'll ain't gonna electrocute nobody if you don't plug this thing in.'

cheers,

Jon