Ferrari Maintenance

I'm mainly a lurker on this board because I defer to those who actually drive, own, or have actual experience about Ferraris but I do have a question regarding engine maintenance.

Why do the engines need major work every 15,000 miles or so? Look at the V-8 engines made by Chevrolet, Lexus, MB, and V-12 by MB or Audi seem to need very little upkeep in comparison. What is it about the way the engines are made that require this attention? My guess is the high RPM that the engines are designed to operate in is part of the equation.

My other question is how do the cars stack up against MB or Lexus in terms of general reliability (electronics, chassis, interior trim,etc)? Seems to me that in todays world you should be able to have both high performance and good reliability.

Anyway thanks for any answers,
Jamie

 

To your second question (the easy one), Ferraris seem to be very high maintenance, reliable cars. Most consumers won't tolerate the regular maintenance a Ferrari demands, so Toyota/Lexus designs its cars to be drive-it-and-forget-it conveyances. Mass production lets car companies achieve very high quality levels when it comes to crucial components. Lexus can spend months or years testing the reliability of a component on an LS430 because they're making 100,000 of them, while Ferrari is only making a couple of hundred Superamericas with a complex flip-over glass roof mechanism. The Ferrari is being made for a super-affluent buyer, who likely doesn't shop for cars based on maintenance costs. To put it bluntly, Ferrari isn't sweating Lexus' ratings in the annual Consumer Reports buyers guide.

Older Ferrari electricals seem to be troublesome, sometimes due to design, sometimes now just because they're old (Ferraris live on forever, Lexuses go to the crusher, so we don't have a lot of 1980s Lexuses to evaluate). Trim varies, but in general 348 and 355 have cheap interior trim, while the earlier cars and newer cars are nicely done. Maybe the best way to sum it up is that There are more nuances between Ferrari models than any other marque I've owned. Sometimes older is better, sometimes it's not.

That said, my '98 Mercedes had an electronic dashboard fail ($1000), the interior delaminated and soft paint that chipped and peeled along the front of the car. The fuel gauge never worked accurately, despite two sender replacements. At this point, I can't say it was a better car than my new-to-me Ferrari 328, althought the Ferrari certainly costs more to service.

 

I echo Bullfighters comments.

Enzo once said, " you pay for the motor, you get the car for free"

Ferrari's are like airplanes, they require more preventative maintenance then most cars. There are a lot more "might as well's" with Ferrari's because say you pull the motor on a 348 to do the belts and not replace/rebuild the water pump and 6 months later your water pump leaks and it requires the motor to be dropped again. By spending an additional $1000, you saved (maybe) an additional $4000-5000 by not having to drop it again.

One thing Ferrari maintenance has taught me is that a $400 major service on my other cars is indeed a bargain.

And like bull, my current 308 has been spot on reliable.

 

The maintenance costs are really high because everyone that drives the Ferrari is afraid of what might happen if something goes wrong while the engine is spinning 6000 RPM. The maintenance costs are not outrageous if you buy a well serviced car that has lots of service records, in my experience. The interior trim is nicely done, but stark compared to the luxury cars you mention. Being a sports car I prefer the minimalist interior on a Ferrari. Like Bullfighter said, mass production and heavily engineered parts make a big difference in how the cars are designed to be used and serviced.
BT

 

Ever look at the maintenance costs on a 30 year old Toyota?

 

we used to have an old Toyota , a long time ago.

it was a 1979 model Corona (iirc) and was extremely reliable and required
almost no maintenance except for running items like brake pads , etc.
Toyota's are very reliable.

the original poster's query is something that I had asked a long time ago,
and never got a satisfactory answer to (actually, I got alot of the "if you
can't appreciate it , buy a toyota" type of response). Lame.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51531

hence I am still F-car-less.

cheers.

 

I've got a '78 308 with almost 100K miles on it. To the best of my knowledge it has never had "major internal" work done on the motor. I'd say that's just about as reliable as any car I've owned.

The regular maintenance on a Ferrari is (hopefully) preventative in nature. Fords, Toyotas, etc also have issues with items like timing belts it's just not nearly as expensive to take care of.

Basically it boils down to economies of scale. You can find cheap parts for a Toyota because there are a LOT of them produced every year. In comparison there are very FEW Ferraris produced every year so naturally the parts cost a lot more.

Logical thinking then tells you that Ferrari preventative maintenance is done because breaking major components like a block or head get's VERY spendy.

I've spent a lot of money on my 308 but it has ALL been preventative or cosmetic. There has not been one thing that broke that resulted in the car being undriveable.

I just spent a week tracking down an electrical problem on my POS '92 Ford Ranger that kept it from starting. Had I cared to do preventative maintenance on it I could have avoided the hassle (but no the cost!). I don't really care if I break it though because I only paid $600 for the whole truck!

I hope that answers at least that part of your question a little better??

 

But your Toyota probably had recommended service intervals too (although probably not as stringent as a Ferrari). You may have chosen to ignore the recommendations but I'm sure they were there. Do you still drive your '79 Toyota today?

 

I qualify to answer this. Not only do I own and drive one of these pain in the necks (348ts), I also do my own work on it.

In a nut shell it's to make money and to limit liability. The more the car sees the dealer the more money they can make. The dealer makes money on the service and FNA makes money on the parts.

Then if they say that the car should have been serviced every 15k miles and you get it serviced at 15,500 miles, then something happens to the car, they can clean themselves of any shotty work because "hey you didn't get it serviced at 15k miles".

They don't.

The workmanship on a Lexus is the far superior to the workmanship on a Ferrari. Ferrari electronics SUCK BALLS, lots of Ferrari have "melting" pannel issues, window problems, bad catalytic conveter ecu's, etcetera. Even the new cars are not free of problems. There are issues with the 360 F1 gear boxes jumping out of gear going around a corner, 550's with clogged fuel pumps and broken motor mounts, clutches wearing out in only 5,000 miles an on a semi-auto F1 box to boot.


Ferrari's look great, sound great, but they aren't put together so great. But, these damn cars are addicting.

 

hi.

the car , of course , did have recommended service intervals , but no one
bother with them. And the car just went on and on. I remember we changed
the oil dependant on how black the oil appeared on the dipstick.

and no , we don't have her in the family anymore.

As an aside , I think that someone who owns (or had owned) , both
Porsches and Ferraris would have a unique perspective on the
issues surrounding performance and cost of ownership.

cheers.
.

 

Ferrari's look great, sound great, but they aren't put together so great. But, these damn cars are addicting.[/QUOTE]

I guess Im an addict then

 

Well there you go: The difference is that "just runs" was good enough on that machine.

I worked it out once. I had a Celica GT-Four (AllTrac Turbo) for 15 years. It was an '88, the same year as my 328, so it was a fair comparison. With both maintained to the service schedule, over a four year period, both cars cost just about the same to maintain (not counting the replacement turbo in the Celica).

(Also, I still have the 328, but I had to replace the Celica with an EVO, because nobody could maintain the Toyota anymore ... including (or especially) the dealers. I had to upgrade the Celica to coil-overs because the stock suspension had no camber adjustment. The Celica just wasn't built to last 20 years.)

The difference in maintenance costs between a performance car and a commuter box comes from the difference in maintenance standards.

 

I will say that MB C280 cost me more to own and was less reliable than my 308, and, was being serviced more often due to failing components. Other than minor electrical issues, my 308 has been wonderful.

 

I've put $1600 into my 95' Lexus sc300 in the last 12 months. My 85' 308qv (bought last August-10 months ago) I've put in about $300- mostly in one-time expenses(fuseblocks and relays)- the rest just routine maintence. It's been great. (about 1500 miles)
Steve

 

I really think that the biggest problem with Ferrari service and reliability is the fact that the vehicles are not being driven enough. The worse thing one can do is to let it sit as a garage queen. If the car is run reasonably frequently- at least 1/week and thoroughly warmed and put through its paces, it is far happier.
Moisture then doesn't freeze clutch plates, condense in distributor caps, and seals do better. The fuel system stays cleaner and oil films in engine internals are intact.
My Boxer has been an interesting lesson-when purchased~10 y ago with "only 10k mi" it manifest a few stealth problems likely based on prior overheating resulting in a warped piston-got away with only a 18k rebuild. But the only problems since have been related to lack of use with ignition issues (distributor cap) cooling issues (thermostat). Since I have been driving the beast much more routinely it is much happier and performs and feels better.
Try letting any new tech car sit most of the time (ie less than 1k mi per year like a 20 y/o with <15k mi) and I wonder what the repair costs would be!

 

I am also addicted to these great cars. I own a 328, 360 and a Mercedes E55.

My 328 has been great, My E55, under warranty (thank God) has had a couple of expensive problems. Radiator failure, the transmission cooler in the radiator leaked coolant into the trans. OUCH! Needed a new transmission.
I have only owned my 360 for a short while. These are very high performance cars with high stress put on them. That being said, the timing belt failure/replacement issue has me puzzled. I hear the F430 is using a chain driven set-up. I am surprised the cam belts, tensioners and associated path hasn't been addressed earlier. I assume the statistacal failure rate is not high enough to cause a re-design. However, when it's your car with a castistrophic failure, stats probably aren't much comfort.

But, driving that Ferrari down the road last night-- Wow! The feel, the sound and of course- that Big nasty redhead at my side!! I love L.A.

 

Prior to 1995, motors all needed valve adjustments every 15K miles, hence the 15K service. Belts could go 30K, but most people never got that far within 5 years. Any vehicle needs new fluids at reasonable intervals, or it will let you down at some point.

Any high performance car costs more to maintain than their appliance brothers.

Build quality is certainly not up to standards of most brands.

Even though Ferraris are very expensive, they only sell 10-20K examples of any given model. Becasue of this, they cannot afford to engineer and develop each part as thoroughly as mass manufacturers, there simply are not enough units to amortize the cost of spending 10 million developing a water pump for instance. This is why there are continual updates. Early customers end up being guinea pigs for continued engineering development.

Dave

 

I think one point that many people overlook is that these cars are an "asset" and don't depreciate like a Lexus does. When it comes to one's house, repairs can be justified as maintaining their biggest asset for future retail. I know that in the 5 plus years I have owned my 328, the value has actually gone up. I believe this is true in part to the care and maintenance I have provided.
Just my opinion......

 

... about the cars benefiting from being driven. My car had averaged about 2k miles/yr, which seems to have been enough to keep it healthy and happy. My PO was diligent about maintenance, too. So far my biggest issue has been an arcing ignition wire on one cylinder. The dealer replaced the whole set and the plugs under warranty. I've tracked the car, too, which is simply a wonderful experience for both car and driver.

As far as longevity goes, my 89 Acura isn't the appliance it used to be, but it does the little I ask of it.

My new-to-me 76 MB 450SL, which was built when Mercedes stood for engineering, could probably use some front-end work, but otherwise is just fine - especially for its age and mileage (101k). The timing chains are a 100k item on this car, but my mechanic inspected them and said they were fine.

Bottom line is that Ferraris are more involving than other cars, in every way: physically, emotionally, and, yes, financially.

 

JD, are you saying you have a 1979 308 with 100k miles and you have never had a major service ie belt change?

 

if you buy a good car, your maintenance expenses will be "low" and reliability will be good. a car that has had its regular maintenance done, not abused, will surprise with its reliability. i would go so far as to say you can get daily driver reliability with pretty much any 1970s+ ferrari. the key is getting a car that has been taken care of. your ownership experience can easily turn nightmarish with a car that needs to be sorted.

john

 

No, I said I have a '78 308 that to the best of my knowledge (I don't have complete records from it's early years but it is the original motor) hasn't had any major INTERNAL motor work. I meant like heads being reworked, motor being rebuilt etc. Of course it's had belts, valve adjustments, fluids, seals, etc, but that's all preventative maintenance.

 

I have a selection of old Haynes manuals dating back, well, making me look kinda old. I have one for an old 1968 VW transporter, old Volvo 140 series, and I am missing my old MG manual. But its interesting how service changed in only the last 20 years. VW required a valve adjustment every 3000 miles on the Beetle, yet almost nobody knew anything about it. Burned valves were a common occurence. Points were to be adjusted and cleaned every 10,000 miles, yet rarely, unless your car either quit or ran like crap did anyone bother. In my MG manual, it actually spoke of replacing the main and rod bearings at 50,000 miles while you had the motor out to de-carbon the head and lap the valves. Now there is some service!

My father is 84 years old, grew up working on old cars, working down at the corner service station. Cars were serviced intently, and at far higher intervals. Wheel bearings repacked every 10K miles. Brakes adjusted every oil change. All suspension joints, leaf spring hinge pins, and driveshaft greased every oil change. labor was cheap and back then a man would give you a good days work for a dollar. Now we live in a plastic throw away world.

Much is claimed as to how Ferrari are simply fabricating lies to keep these cars getting serviced. I would offer that Ferrari were the very last dinosaur on automotivedom to bend and sway to the zero maintainance regiem. So many have balked at the timing belt drive, so many have made so many rediculous arguments, that now your precious F430 is back running chains. I do not believe a chain is any kind of performance package, compared to an almost weightless belt drive. If so, why lighten flywheels, crankshafts or connecting rods and pistons?

No, I see nothing wrong with checking valve clearance every 15K miles on an engine such as this. Its NOT a Toyota or anything else, its a Ferrari. Its a car built by a man who only wanted to race, and we only have these offerings so as to finance his first love. And what he gave us was racing derived performance cars, basically a detuned version of a Formula One engine we can drive on the street. What kind of service would a Formula One engine require? What will it require in $$$$$ to repair it should it fail from lack of maintainance? As far as service and dealers, Ferrari expected YOU to service your own darned car and get your own fingers dirty. having your car serviced at the service department is only for poseurs. If your gonna go in there you should expect to open your wallet far and wide.

IMO Ferrari is being old school on maintainance. Servicing your car is your own personal choice, myself I have seen a lot of neglected crap over the years. Who changes spark plugs anymore? Who pulls off a cam or rocker cover? Who pulls off the distributor and plays with it on the workbench? Some of you guys do, but thats about it. Its becoming a lost art thats for sure. And really, the service on the engine in a 308 is a one day job or so if you get on it and dont stand around posing.

 

I have a different take on maintenance -
I just purchased a 1981 308 GTSi that has been converted over to a 2.8 liter GM V-6, with a 4 barrel Holly. The car was on Ebay, and I got it for $20 grand.
I just drove it for the first time yesterday. It's pretty darn quick. And yes, I have also driven stock 308's.
I know Ferrari enthusiasts will consider this blasphamy, but the idea appealed to be because of low cost and ease of maintenance.
The overall condition of the car is pretty good too. It's got a few issues - Passenger side window doesn't work, brakes are soft, but overall I think this car is a keeper for sure.
Has anyone ever seen this done before?

 

I have a 308qv & I beg to differ on the 1-off hang-up & part quality complaints.
It seems to me that Ferrari was not above raiding the parts bins of Fiat and using generic Bosch, ATE & other major parts suppliers.
The issue, I think, is that you need to know where the parts came from and went because Ferrari didn't stock enough replacements, charge high rates, and a lot of parts are no longer available from Ferrari. Also, being Italian cars, parts,sizes, and replacements aren't readily available in aftermarket here. Ribe bolts, In the US? Metric hoses in your local autoparts store?
My point is Ferrari is more expensive to maintain per mile driven than a daily beater because it's not as common. I suspect we also drive them harder than our daily beaters inducing more components to fail. I don't see any surprises here.