No Soul

I don't know if any of you caught Autoline Detroit today but there was a quote from Kevin Hunter, president of Caltry Design Reseach, Toyota. Here's what he said about car design today.

"The power plant is really a side issue. Of course, it's important but really its not the reason for an automobile. So if we can make those systems smaller, more compact, we can rethink packaging and maximize the space for people, that's really a good equation that we all want to be striving for."

Someone in Maranello was chuckling today when they heard this.....

Fun?.. not really important. Interesting?... Nah. Exciting to drive and own?... not a big deal. Dream about an night.... Ummm, are you kidding?

Now we know why Japanese cars have no soul. It starts at the top.

 

I would agree with him where the general public is concerned.

I dont know that anyone looks for 'soul' in a Camry. Its supposed to provide reliable and affordable transportation. Having said that I know several people with economy cars that love them and feel they have a personality all their own.

 

Yes, I see your point but I would also disagree.

I've owned several small Fiat sedans and they were chucked full of soul... 124 sedan and a 3P coupe. (Ok, they broke down and rusted but they certainly were fun to drive). I've owned a Alfa GTV that had so much soul, you couldn't help smiling every time you drove it. I haven't driven a new Fiat 500 but I suspect it's far more interesting than any small Toyota to drive.

Also, look at a BMW 2002 or 3 series. I drive a Mini cooper S now and it's filled to the rim with soul. I would say that Subaru is an exception for the most part. I'll give them credit for that. Maybe is you're small you have to try harder.

The most boring car I have ever owned was a Honda Civic. Yes, it started and ran but never did I have a sense of urgency or excitment in it. I travel a lot and I've driven about every modern Japanese car by renting them. When I park them, I have a difficult time remembering what it was I was driving. I have to look at the keys to know if it was a Toyota, Honda, or Mazda.

You CAN make a small efficient car with soul and excitment. It's just not on a high enough priority list for most Japanese manufacturers. Listening to this guy this morning just reinforced what I already suspected. Thank heavens there are still car manufactorers out there that have a different design philosophy!

 

I used to enjoy my Accord MUCH more than I enjoy my current Camry because it did have a soul. But for the mass market, people just don't give a hoot about the motor.



That doesn't mean steering feel and handling should be entirely compromised, but sadly it is.

 

No, keep in mind Toyota spends a serious amount of $ on its power plant development. Sure I can gain and understand what you mean about a lack of feeling where a BMW or other Euro makers have when it comes down to building a car. What this is all about is the communication issues you have between Toyota Japan and Toyota USA, if you can look into that detail you will see what I’m talking about. Another thing you have to consider the interviewer and interviewee have interesting points, lets not forget the interviewee is under contract with Toyota and can not speak what he really knows what the problems is with this.

BMW has so much more feeling Vs a Lexus.

 

We'll agree to disagree...no worries.

I will say I went car shopping with my GF this weekend for a Civic Coupe. That is a BLAST to drive. This coming from a guy whos owned a viper, 355, Elise, M Roadster and E55 benz so I know cars with soul. That Civic was fantastic...

 

Well, if you're happy, I'm happy (and I'm not being sacrastic).

 

The civic was for my GF... it was a blast ...dont get me wrong but Ill stick to the viper and E55 !

 

NO piece of machinery has a soul, although that teenage terminator chick gives me a woodie every episode. Some cars (ex sports cars) are more fun to drive than econoboxes or trucks or minivans but they are machinery. My beef with Japanese high end cars is that they are boring to look at and drive (underpowered, with soft suspensions, and very poor road feedback).

 

Speaking of soulless cars, those folks at Maranello have no room to laugh need to look in the mirror.


The Japanese are eating American car makers for lunch. In fact, they are eating ALL car makers for lunch as far as mass production vehicles is concerned. There's not another manufacturer out there that produces higher quality at a lower price. With the likes of the GT-R, it's a matter of time till they are on the backdoor of some exotic car makers. I don't think Japanese cars will ever be considered true exotic, they will be putting out some quality high performance cars at a good price. Unlike the high performance metal turd we produce called the Corvette and Viper.

 

Hey, someone stole the soul from your User ID!!

 

They dont need soul. For the most part their cars are purposeful and sold at mass quantities. time spent on design is time lost on sales... We all know that, even if Honda designed a fun, well handling sports car people would still buy the rivaling Porsche more times than they'd go for the (NSX.)

Skyline GTR or 997GT3 ?
350Z or Cayman S ? (or even '08 plate Audi TT 3.2)
Lexus ISF or E92/E90 M3?

You can see that either way the european competitor is more desireble to more people.

 

Funny you should say that. My wife went out looking at a Honda Fit and loved it. Did you know the automatic Fit has paddle shifters.

 

YES ! We test drove a Fit as well. The best part was our salesman said 'and it has paddle shifters like a Ferrari' ...got a kick out of that.

GF liked the Fit but decided to take the creature comforts of the Civic and sacrifice (I think it was) 2 mpg . I was surprised they were so close in fuel economy.

Did your wife get the Fit ?

 

I never thought '[Honda] Civic' and 'creature comforts' would go together....

 

I don't think the current Japanese automakers will produce an exotic car soon, if ever. (I don't know how you define "soul" in a car, but I define it as [a] a car whose maker is apparent even without the badges/identification, and a car that acknowledges driving as sport. I'm sure that definition is arguable and incomplete.)

The small workshop mentality that shaped Ferrari, Lambo, Lotus and Aston Martin is just fundamentally different than the way industrial giants in Japan (and Detroit, by the way) operate. Look at even a crappy exotic, like an early Esprit -- it has aspects of a kit car about it. There are many aspects of the Ferrari 328 and TR which, while more nicely done, don't feel like the stuff that would come out of meticulous Asian design center (e.g, the climate control knobs in the 328/TR/F40, or the annual re-design of the 328 seatback hinge.) Look at how Ferrari stuck the radio into the center console (near the gearchange) of some of its models, as though they really couldn't be bothered with the usability of everyday crap like a radio.

As far as mass produced cars, sure. Every time I drive a Honda (and I've owned three of them) I'm impressed with the value and reasonable amount of style it represents. They aren't about soul and don't have to be. For most people, that's fine.

Do I think modern Ferraris or Lamborghinis have as much "soul" as they did? Not even close. But they're not Hondas.

 

The Lexus LFA looks promising... but it's Lexus, so I have my doubts for that reason.

 

I hear you..but this new generation is great. Add the leather and Nav options and I didnt feel it was any less a car than a base 3 series BMW or C class benz. Both cars Ive owned.

 

Back in the seventies, a bud drove a basic, soulless, motley yellow Toyota Corolla.

About a year after it was purchased, another bud moved into town, becoming fast friends with us hipsters and shortly thereafter, christened it "The Cheeseburger"

As you may have guessed by now, from that day forward, that car had soul.

 

Agree with bdelp re the old FIATs, but I'd argue the 3 series BMWs are boring as bat****. BTW, I've driven the new 500 and while it's fun, I don't see it becoming the icon the old one has and for a few bucks extra the Ritmo (Brava in Europe) is way better. I took a current Mini Cooper S on an FCA run last year and had great fun with it!

 

I am looking at getting a new generation fit or a Civic Si this fall. I have a Honda Element and I love that car. Its great at the beach. 200,000 miles and not one problem. I have been an Alfa guy most of my life and I wished they sold them here in the states. My recent german car experiences have been a nightmare. German cars may have some soul but the build quality is the worst for long term ownership.

 

I've always enjoyed cultivating soul into my Japano-econo-cars. Not to high school ricer level (I never touch the exterior,) but a moderate supension upgrade, intake, exhaust, tires, and a re-tune can usually turn a run-of-the-mill Blando into something that has a slight edge, you know? Sometimes, it is really dramatic, sometimes it is just some good projects that endear me to the car.

With that said, my first car (1978 Malibu Classic Wagon) had more soul than anything I have owned since. Truly a POS, but the experiences in it were what made it come alive.

 

We are going out today and pick one up. She wanted the sport model with a manual transmission.

 

My wife drives a 07 Benz C230, I call it the $34K German Civic. Yeah it has a V6 it drives good. But I think an Accord is a much better car. I don't know what soul is but build quality, comfort, price and resale value is what most people go for. And the Jap cars have all of that. They will out sale just about anything. And when they are used they will out sale more cars then when they were new. For a daily driver I'd buy a 10 year old Jap car in a heart beat, but I wouldn't touch a 10 yr old European car. The Jap cars might not have soul but they have heart.

 

I would say the opposite - they are bad quality for short term ownership only because they cost more than they should to maintain.. For long term, German cars are usually solid... VW, Porsche and Mercedes are the best quality German cars - BMWs are not very good for long term use compared to those three (especially any bmw pre - '00.)

I sold my '73 911 targa to a relative back in '94, and he still drives it as a daily driver... I bought it brand new, in 1973, so theoretically it has been used as a daily driver its entire life.. and no major issues.