PPI

Hey, guys. New prospective owner here.
I've come close to purchasing three cars now. None of the owners are willing to take the car in so I can have a PPI done.
Is this the new norm?
Am I seriously expected to pay six figures for a car without having it inspected?
Legitimately wondering if I'm just being out of line by asking.

Thanks, in advance!

 

Curious as to the objections you’re hearing.

“No, I will not allow any inspection at all” might raise a red flag with me.

“No, I’m not going to spend my own time and money transporting the car for you” I might understand.

“No, I’m not going to allow an inspection no matter who pays at any shop other than one I approve” is somewhere in between.

So what are you being told?

 

One says he will not have it done unless I pay his asking price. He's unwilling to negotiate price if I want a PPI. It's a $5k difference.

Another refused, but then has just now told me he will take the car in as long as I share the report with him so he can use it to sell the car to other people "if you don't end up buying it". This is after him getting mad because he thought I wanted him to pay for it and he said it would be useless if I didn't buy the car because "I'd have to buy one for everyone".

This has not been a good experience. Maybe I need to get out of the Ferrari market and go another route.

 

Sharing the report is fair, I'd go ahead with that. I've always shared PPI results with sellers.

In my opinion, buying the car is the easy part. If you're ready to give up over this relatively minor difficulty, that may be for the best.

 

Buying a car that is infamous for pricey maintenance, without an inspection, is a minor thing?

 

What model are you shopping for? Might make a difference as to the kind of owners you may encounter that would own the model. There's likely a difference in mindset regarding a PPI between owners of enthusiast/collector cars and the ones that people just throw money at predominately for the status....

BTW - careful who you use to actually perform the PPI. An independent who specializes in the model will likely do a better job vs a franchised dealer...

 

I'm shopping 360s and 430s, so I'm at the bottom of the totem pole LOL. I was going to have Raging Bull, here in CA check the car out.

 

This sounds pretty crazy to me. If I was a seller and you asked to do a PPI on your dime, I'd (a) think that's totally reasonable and (b) interpret it as an indication that you're serious.

I've never personally had a seller resist a PPI request (I've never purchased a Ferrari from a private seller though). I can think of only four reasons someone might object:

1. They have something to hide (or are worried they might have something to hide).
2. They're worried you'll try to nickel and dime them over whatever the report turns up. Inevitably a decent inspector will find a few issues on a car that age. They may worry you're just doing the PPI to create leverage.
3. The transport costs and inconvenience might not be worth it.
4. They're just unreasonable.

FWIW, I'd certainly offer to give them the report. If you're paying for it anyway, why not take the goodwill?

Stick with it. Those cars are worth a little trouble. Good luck!

 

The excuses I'm getting for the car I've settled on:
1. The "I've been doing this for a long time and know anything they could possibly tell you".
2. They just look at window switches and headlights. You will need to pay an arm and leg to have them check mechanicals (clutch, trans, engine).
3. I had my personal tech look at it before I bought it and again before deciding to sell. it's good.

I told him I insist on having it done. He says he will when he has time, if the car doesn't sell first.

I've been in his situation before, so trying to be understanding; I've sold an exotic of which I personally did ALL the work and knew every nut and bolt on that thing. The buyer couldn't have possibly known. I also dropped my car to a "buy it now" price but wanted my asking price if I were to take my personal time to have a PPI performed. So.... trying to be sympathetic. But... it's a lot of money to drop on a car WITHOUT having an inspection done.

Does a PPI costing <$500 check the mechanicals of the car? At LEAST check the clutch inspection window? I am assuming the cost of a new clutch in the price of this car, just in case.

Speaking of which... where can I get the scanner/computer needed to read/program the clutch on a 360??

 

When hiring inspectors in the past, I've asked them to provide copies of their checklists or old reports. They've always obliged. Doesn't prove they'll do a good job checking each item. But at least you know what they claim they'll check.

I've found they're never super thorough. (How could they be at that price?) They'll find a few things and miss a few others. But I had one that came back with big red flags. That's why they're worth the effort - they might help you avoid a clunker.

Sounds like something an honest seller might say.

And sounds like something an unscrupulous seller would say.

That seems reasonable. And his perogative.

 

Your path to a PPI is pretty normal, one guy had a misunderstanding who was going to pay, then it worked out. And you are finding some less than honest sellers.

I bought my last two exotics from private sellers who didn’t mind an inspection. In one case I had to use the seller’s mechanic, but I vetted him and flew to NJ to watch it.

Funny you mention Raging Bull. They were supposed to do a PPI for me many years ago. The seller was too busy to drive it over so he hired a flatbed to tow it. When RB received the car, the clutch was toast due to the driver not knowing how to drive a manual and not using a come along. So I told the guy (don’t remember if it was RB or the seller) no thanks, no longer interested.

 

Ouch. I feel for that seller. I've never seen a tow truck driver drive a car onto a flatbed, they've always used a winch. Kinda defeats the purpose of a tow.
Mental note: always tell the driver that the car does NOT run. Lol

 

I’ve been on both sides of PPIs many times and, on the whole, find them generally to be worthless. It’s mental insurance for skittish buyers but is not the ultimate assurance they hope it to be.

Some anecdotes:

I once was a seller of a Porsche. A qualified Porsche indy looked it over and reported back that the belt(s) looked really old. I literally had them changed a couple months before at the dealer and showed him the receipt. The buyer called me a liar and walked away. Big waste of time.

I once was a buyer of a Ferrari and ‘paid up’ for a seemingly super qualified PPI. One of the inspection points I emphasized was with the electricals. The inspection came back with a double thumbs up. Car was purchased and delivered to me with electrical problems so bad that I had to put in an expensive new fuse box in the first month of ownership.

I now refuse to get involved either as buyer or seller with PPIs except for in special situations. If that doesn’t work for the other party, on to the next car.

Go see the car yourself and drive it. You will glean more than you think and are capable of assessing.

Good luck!

 

From what I can see the PPI is going to look for things that I already know to look for. Seems they are for people who don't know how to look at a car themselves. They don't check anything I want looked at, anyway. ,

 

Or when you can't see it for yourself. (Never preferable, sometimes reality though.)

 

OOooh. I've done that once. ONCE. LOL. Man.. that was bad. I had to fly to Detroit to take the guy to court. It was all bad. Never, ever again. From a private seller, anyway.

 

PPI's are generally not that valuable...people think they're getting a seal of approval that everything and will be fine. There are countless threads here with stories about how a PPI didn't find an issue and/or how something went wrong after buying the car.

The only upside to a PPI is what Nate said, if you can't see it in person and don't have good reliable photos, get it looked at. You can at least get a sense if there are major problems, but with any used car that's 10+ years old (which all 360/430's are now) you should expect some things to require attention...

 

THAT is your fault, I always go over what I want looked at before sending a guy out there.

 

I have found them very valuable, as I decided to walk away a couple of times. Once, I told a guy to go home when a leak down test failed miserably in the first hour….

 

A PPI is highly recommended for the purchase of a vehicle sold by an individual or by a dealer that is not an authorized dealer. I bought my car with an authorized Ferrari dealer without a PPI but not only I got all the maintenance documents since the beginning, I also got a Power15 manufacturer’s warranty for 2 years (peace of mind).

If the seller is out of state and does not want to have a PPI done, walk away (don’t expect any older used car to be perfect anyway). Yes you could share the results with the seller. The key is to find a reputable professional to do the PPI.

 

An entertaining thread reading all the responses. I think a key is WHO is doing your PPI.

Six years ago a friend of mine bought a 1967 MB 230SL. He's in MA and the car was in CO. He cheaped out and got a mechanic that his neice, who lived out there, recommended. The guy charged $50 to do a PPI, seriously? He got an good report back, bought the car, and needless to say the car has been a money pit.

When I bought my 612 which was located out in Cleveland, I posted on here and the premier Ferrari independent was recommeded to me to do the PPI. Not only that, but a member here who had bought cars from this dealer (not Ferrari) not only vouched for the dealer, but also went to eyeball the car just to tell me the pics were accurate.

The car was exactly as advertised and needless to say that 10 years later I am still a happy camper!

Edit: I should add, the dealer didn't allow the car out of his facility, but the independent expert was allowed to come and use the dealer's facility to do all his inspections.

 

My PPI when I bought mine was by Murray Bacchus in Florida. It was for my 360 when I bought it in 2010. I asked him simply, "just give me an idea what you think". He told me " This is what I see wrong with it. passenger mirror is busted, its a 5/10, drives, runs. I think it will sell for $XX,XXX. And that was the number I bought it for. Had a few things that didn't get picked up, btu it gave me a good idea what the general condition was. Was absolutely pleased with it when I couldn't be there in person.

Now anyone asking me to give it to someone to take the engine pan off, remove the plugs for compression check, disassemble this and that, yaddity yaddity... that's all on ME. not the buyer if something gets messed up during the inspection. So, in general I'm going to say.. um.. no. Fly out, see the car. Go for a drive in it if the seller won't let you drive it... and take the car home. At up to 25 years of age now, there WILL be things wrong with it. You WILL have to spend money to get it perfect. What's the overall condition? Adjust the price accordingly and go with it. If it's a stick, you're probably not going to have as much power in the negotiation as you think you might. At this stage in the economic cycle, the idea of falling prices still mgiht take another 12 months to absorb. Esp if the seller bought the car in the YOLO COVID days for over market price.

 

• PPI's are not worthless, nor are they a guarantee. They are, of course, neither of those extreme strawmen. (in terms of value, like someone else above said, I too was able to walk from 2 Ferrari purchases due to info learned via a PPI, and my few purchases after a PPI were successful in terms of no surprises with the vehicle - small sample size though)

• A seller that won't allow a buyer-prospect-paid PPI at a shop that the seller is comfortable with, isn't one I'd buy from. (but the two qualifiers in this sentence are important - the would-be-buyer pays and the seller gets to approve of the shop). Sellers not wanting to pay for a PPI or that won't allow their car to go to a shop they don't approve of, is not a concern in and of itself.

• For buyers that do decide they will only purchase with a PPI, they should get one regardless of where the car is being sold/marketed. There are countless firsthand stories on F-chat of "Authorized Ferrari Dealer's" selling cars with significant issues. I have no idea if the rate of such issues is higher or lower than at other seller types, but by no means does the evidence suggest a buyer can trust an authorized dealer in they otherwise are a "PPI only Buyer". (this should not be surprising to anyone, but I felt compelled to type this based on a comment above)

 

Maybe instead of a PPI, you can you review the records.

What are the major issues on a 360/F430? Belt change for the 360, history of fluid changes, clutch life, headers, any lights on the dash, last brake pads change. Anything else to look for?

 

As far as paying for a PPI, if the seller wants a copy, shouldn't he pay for half?

I bought a 328 from an independent dealer with no PPI, sight unseen. I figured I could rake them over the coals in public if something wasn't as advertised. Harder to do when buying from an individual.

Service records are your friend.