Starter Issue

I have never had issues with the starter motor in 5 years with the car. I've had dead batteries at times but starter has never clicked or grunted or did anything more than a 'zing' when it disengaged from the flywheel.

Today was a nice fall day and my wife and I headed to Cape May to hit the Cape May Winery. Car ran flawless for the 80 mile ride down. I went out to fire it up and no fire. Ignition on and turned the key and nothing. No click, no grunt, nothing. I check battery terminals and all was okay and nothing.

Called AAA for a lift home. I kept thinking when it cools down it would start. Tow truck came and he put on a booster box and same result. So she got her first ride on the back of a flat bed (at least in my times). Unloaded it and PUSHED it into garage. Tried the key and it started right up.

Over the years starters usually have given me a hint that the motor is weak, the solenoid is weak or there is a misalignment with the flywheel. This one gave no notice.

Any ideas?? I know I will get plenty.

Problem with troubleshooting now is that it will start every time in the garage. I need to take an 80 mile ride that ends in my garage!
Ken

 

Hello Ken,

I have a Porsche 356B that did the same thing your 400 is doing.
The problem turned out to be heat soak in the starter.
There were two things that cured it. One was replacing the battery to starter cable with 00 copper welding set ground cable. There is about 8 feet of it in the Porsche. The other was some sort of kit I got form somewhere specifically designed to deal with the swelled up starter motor parts causing extra drag.

All this was 25 years ago and I have had no trouble since. Maybe Al Zim at alzim.com knows about the kit. I'll look in my 356 maintenance file for a source as will.

I know I harp about ground cable cleanliness and contact but that is what I'd look at first. Not just at the battery but also at the starter and at the chassis connections to make sure they are metal to metal and not metal to paint.

The 356 is 6V and jumping with a 12V did nothing to break the starter loose.

Greg

 

Check the mass cable running from the battery to the engine block (there are 2 mass cables if I am right, the other one is running from the battery to the chassis). That cable gave me some starting issues. These cables get old and thin and may cause the problem you describe (sometimes starting, sometimes not). Once the cable was renewed the start issues were completely gone. Good luck!

 

I don't think a hot starter or cables will be your problem. A hot starter or corroded cables will have high current draw but won't exhibit the symptoms you described.
If nothing happens, no click of the relay etc. I'd suspect the ignition switch or a relay, perhaps a wiring issue but not the starter cable.

 

I went through the wiring diagram last night and there appears to be one relay that senses the auto transmission is in P or N. I did try both positions when I had the problem think a bad contact in the switch. I am going with Ross for my first checks with the relay, since relays on these cars is always problematic. I know the starter switch is making contact because each time I go to the start position I can hear the fuel pumps running come on and they are off when in the ignition position. (I thought they stayed off until there was air flow on the left FI air flow sensor but it appears they are on when 'cranking'.) I will go the grounding and power cables but like I said there was not grunt or clicking which are the usual signs of lack of amps getting to the starter. I will check the switch on the tranny too but that should not be so heat sensitive.

I'll do a little checking this evening but it will be the weekend before I get underneath it.

Greg, I had a '61 356B Karmen Coupe and it is the only one I have ever seen. It had the 6V system and one winter at -20 for a week a friend had to jump it will a 12 V battery and it spun the motor fine. Only consistent issue I had with that car was snapping the clutch cable every other winter on the firs very cold day. That is not convenient in the center of Boston, but I managed to get it home without the clutch!

 

The same thing happened to me at a B&B in Big Bear, Callfornia one winter.

For the first time ever I was glad I'd had that '52 VW with the crash box.
I too got home from the mountains w/o the clutch.

At -20 the 12V jump works. It doesn't work at +100 with a hot engine.

Greg

 

I have had the starter go on my 412. Third repair according to the records. Bearing failure.
Bought a 400 and the starter went before I took delivery! Started when put on and off transporter, delivered to friend's place but would not start again!!!
Hitorque starters did the trick. http://www.castleauto.com.au/hs_dbase/format_search.php?Z3Jfc3RhcnRlcnMuaW5pK2FsbHNlYXJjaA==
Have had a C/4 since 83 and no starter problems!!! Go figure.
Your problem may not be the starter - but could be. Hope it isn't because to install you have to remove the exhaust.

 

+1 on the relay connection,
++1 on the ground cable connection to the chassis because of paint.
Am doubtful on the smaller mass cable to the engine block because there is a weave type connection from chassis to the tranny but wouldn't hurt to check/maintain.
I never noticed the pumps going on during engine cranking (with all of the strained noise the starter makes, I'm concentrating on that!) but would definately think that they would be pumpin' because air is moving past the AM sensor during cranking. I'll have to give that a 'listen to' next time. ;-)

 

My vote is relay/electrical connection. If it "clicked" I'd be voting something else. Break out that test light and go to it.

 

The switch has seperate contacts for start and run, running fuel pumps don't make it a good switch. Thw switch I believe is a BMW part and the relays are ... well I'd look at relays first but don't rule out the switch.

 

I've checked the N and P switches on the shift level. I cleaned the contacts and added some Stabilent. (I'm not sure I believe in this KoolAid but I do drink it some times.) After locating the relay that gets the signal from the shift lever and sends power to the solenoid, I removed it and contacts were dirty. I was surprised that the wires in/out are as heavy gauge as they are. These wires carry the full current to the solenoid. I have a new relay arriving in a day or two and I'll use a new one plus add Stabilent to the contacts. I then got the car on the lift and the ground strap looked good but I have moved mounting bolt one step closer to the engine by bolting it through to the engine housing rather than via the torque converter cover. Up to this point I figured the relay and dirty contacts were the issue.

Now I got close to the starter. It sure is not easy getting to the two terminals for the main battery power or the solenoid wire. Both wires seem to suffer a bit from the heat, and there is a little cut of the solenoid wire insulation. The wire on the solenoid appeared to be a tad bit loose. After some wiggling and trying to get a wrench on the "nut", it is now a bit more loose. As best I can see in there, the solenoid wire does not seem to have a normal nut holding it on.

So two questions:
1. What holds the solenoid wire onto the solenoid? If a normal nut what size wrench is needed.
2. Any suggestions how to get a bit more access to the wires on the starter and solenoid? I am working thru the "window" that the exhaust header comes thru. There are some ATF cooling lines blocking the way. Is there anything that can readily be moved out of the way to get more access to the wires?

I am one trip away from taking car off the road for the winter so I hope to do at least a temporary fix now and I'll take off more over the winter.
Ken

 

I tried to attack from the top rather than bottom and removed the header exhaust heat shield but that did not good since the starter has its own heat shield.

I went back to the bottom and found the solenoid wire is held by a set screw in an electrical connector that looks like your typical throttle cable link (at least if you have a Lotus it is typical). With a bit of dexterity I got a small screw driver on it and I got a tiny turn on the screw. The added "looseness" I felt was not the connector but just the wire after unclipping the Tyrap holding the solenoid wire and main power wire together.

I did all I could on this now I need to do a test of a long hard drive and let it sit for an hour an hope it restarts.
Ken

 

I had starter issues back in 2009 when I didn't know about FChat. It was refurbished for 800 EUR and I don't even know what exactly was done. Nice to see that here are other people that have the same issues and find help on the forum.

 

Instead of starting a new thread, thought I would weigh in on this one. The op's issue does not sound like a solenoid issue. It will usually click when not working properly. Also, does not sound like a hot soak issue.


As for me, I definitely have a solenoid issue. I have an 83 400i. Pulled the starter off this evening because it had started to "click" sometimes before engagine the starter. Pulled the solenoid off to clean the contacts. Was putting it back together and the pot metal cap on the end of the solenoid just disintegrated in my hand.

I know I can buy a gear reduction starter and solenoid for $425.95 and free shipping. Probably what I should do, as I plan to have this engine for a long time, even if much of the rest of the car is going to be parted out.

My questions are:

can I purchast just that end cap? If so where?

if not, can I purchase the solenoid? again, if so, where?

The starter and solenoid are both Magneti Marelli brand. They are still in business, but have no presence in the US. I sent an email, but am not expecting a response.

Thanks for any help.

Lynn Bilodeau

 

What does that mean?

 

It means the car is hit left front and I am planning on using as much of it as possible putting together another car. Car was discussed briefly on this board before.

Anything I don't use will be sold. I bought it this way (wrecked) because I needed a donor car for another project. This one is low mileage (47k), engine runs well, doesn't smoke and has zero leaks. I know that parting out Ferrari's is a touchy subject, and I get that. I didn't buy it just to part it out. I needed a V-12 engine. That said, there will be a lot of good parts available, and I won't be asking ridiculous prices, as long as I believe the part is going to someone who plans to use it on their own car. I am not planning on using the Kjetronic, so both fuel regulators will be available. The plan is Elecromotive engine management for both spark and fuel. Right now, I am not willing to part with any of the suspension or brake components, as I may be adapting them to the tube frame project car.

I was supposed to be "on this" project before now, but sometimes things happen... and life changes whether we plan on it or not. I should be back on track in a few months. I have one more project that is 90% complete and then will start on this one.

Hope that answers your question.

 

It means the car is hit left front and I am planning on using as much of it as possible putting together another car. Car was discussed briefly on this board before.

Anything I don't use will be sold. I bought it this way (wrecked) because I needed a donor car for another project. This one is low mileage (47k), engine runs well, doesn't smoke and has zero leaks. I know that parting out Ferrari's is a touchy subject, and I get that. I didn't buy it just to part it out. I needed a V-12 engine. That said, there will be a lot of good parts available, and I won't be asking ridiculous prices, as long as I believe the part is going to someone who plans to use it on their own car. I am not planning on using the Kjetronic, so both fuel regulators will be available. The plan is Elecromotive engine management for both spark and fuel. Right now, I am not willing to part with any of the suspension or brake components, as I may be adapting them to the tube frame project car.

I was supposed to be "on this" project before now, but sometimes things happen... and life changes whether we plan on it or not. I should be back on track in a few months. I have one more project that is 90% complete and then will start on this one.

Hope that answers your question.

 

Ok got it.

I get first dibs on the sunvisor clips!

 

Sorry for the double post above. Not sure how I managed that. Doh!

Dave:

PM me your address. I will be at the shop today and can check to see if they are both good. If so, I will mail them to you.

I can't sell any of the parts that would prevent the car from being weatherproof until next summer when I start the disassembly. I am moving it this week from my old shop area which is indoor and climate controlled to a friends barn, so need to keep it weather proof.

However, for many of the small interior parts that I won't be using, I am fine getting rid of. I may use the steering column, but will not be using the steering wheel. The leather is as pristiine as one could expect for a 28 year old vehicle.

I am guessing no one really needs the back seat, but let me know if you do. Hope I am not breaking any forum rules by posting here. I know some forums have very strict rules regarding where to post "for sale" ads.

Exterior is light brown (forget the name of the color) and interior is what I would call natural, a very light tan color. Windshield is cracked (not from the wreck) but all other glass is good. I am going to use as much of this car as feasible, but there will be a lot of parts available. Hopefully they will all go to good homes, i.e. keeping another Ferrari on the road for many years to come.

Every time I get under this car, I end up wasting time just gawking at this marvel of engineering. It is so well made. I owned an auto repair shop before going to law school, so I know a bit about cars. Between my brother and I we have owned 55 bimmers over the years. My daily driver is an old 745i turbo (which by the way appears to have almost the same ATE 4 piston caliper front brake set up as this 83 400i). My wife's driver is an M Roadster. As you can tell, I am a bit of a bimmer fan, and over all believe they are engineered and built well (not counting the hideous interiors '91 to about '96 models). However, the engineering and level of workmanship on the Ferrari still amazes me. The bimmers just can't compare. Only thing I can't figure out is why a 1983 400i didn't get ABS, but my 83 745i did get it. And it still works perfectly.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. I just wanted everyone to know I was parting this car for the right reasons. I did't buy it to profit from parts. I will sell a lot of parts to help off-set the purchase price. I even looked at the possibility of repairing this car. Appeared the parts along with the purchase price of the car would have exceeded the final value of the finished product (it is an auto) even without taking my labor into consideration. It just didn't make sense.

Now, back to that starter issue. Where can I get a solenoid? Closest thing I have found is a Magneti Marelli solenoid for an old Alfa that at least appears identical. If I don't have a lead by Tues, I will just purchase the gear reduction aftermarket starter.

Thanks guys. I am sure that once I start the disassembly, I will have lots of questions.

Lynn Bilodeau

 

Well I found the solenoid. At least it looks exactly like the one I have. I beleive the place is in Switzerland because I have the option of paying in SFr, which I believe is Swiss Franks or USD.

Unfortunately, the price is $459.69 USD, which is more than I can buy the entire gear reduction starter.

I really believe someone out there has just the end cap for this solenoid. Oh well, guess taking it in the shorts is part of the Ferrari experience.

Lynn

 

One more try. I have located a couple of possibilities, but it is impossible to tell from the pictures whether they are an exact fit.

Surely one of you guys bought the gear reduction starter and kept your old worn out starter. I just need the solenoid, or the end cap for the solenoid.

Picture (not mine, but identical to mine).

Any chance?

Thanks.

Lynn
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Did you ever fix the solenoid on your starter? Also, does anyone know if the solenoid shown in these pics is the original Marelli for the MT21T starter? I suspect it is...and if so, that means the one that was on my starter was not--it was something done during its rebuild 10 or so years ago.

 

Guys, just by the gear reduction starter and quit screwing around with the piece of junk factory one.

 

My thoughts exactly, Jim!

 

AK Jim...you can't get them. They are being redesigned.....so I just fixed my original one.
With regards to responding to this thread, I was just curious about that solenoid.