Fuel Injection Mod ? | FerrariChat

Fuel Injection Mod ?

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by FCnew, May 10, 2015.

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  1. FCnew

    FCnew Formula Junior

    May 5, 2015
    687
    Hong Kong / Canada
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    Jonathan
    #1 FCnew, May 10, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  2. FCnew

    FCnew Formula Junior

    May 5, 2015
    687
    Hong Kong / Canada
    Full Name:
    Jonathan
    #2 FCnew, May 10, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  3. FCnew

    FCnew Formula Junior

    May 5, 2015
    687
    Hong Kong / Canada
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    Jonathan
    #3 FCnew, May 10, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  4. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

    Dec 6, 2012
    1,839
    UK
    Interesting but probably expensive? Wouldn't carbs be a better cheaper option and would look way better with greater throttle response...
     
  5. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

    Jul 26, 2009
    5,401
    Ahwatukee, AZ
    Isn't throttle body injections a big step backward from port fuel injection? The CIS of our cars isn't the most modern or efficient but I think this is going the wrong way. Now to upgrade to port EFI, that would be a different story.
     
  6. Rapalyea

    Rapalyea Formula 3

    Jun 18, 2013
    1,511
    Georgia Mountains US
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    David Rapalyea alias
    #6 Rapalyea, May 10, 2015
    Last edited: May 10, 2015
    [My computer only displayed the photo AFTER I already wrote the following which not longer applies since I see you have TBI. I like TBI but depending on how the fuel is supplied there could be some sort of obstruction requiring larger body opening. Looks like a fine installation. If it drives well why not]

    IGNORE THE FOLLOWING

    Does the new control mechanism adjust timing in a more aggressive way? That is one thing that might make some small difference. I believe our cars are set for 91 octane but even that I am not certain of. An additional 2 points provided with 93 octane would likely have very little noticeable effect. Based on my experience experimenting with such things you might get the following.

    1) A boost in torque below 3,000 rpm. I bumped my supercharge Mark VII base timing from 10 btdc to 14 and changed from 87 octane to 93. I had an "A/B" switch and the bump was quite noticeable below 3,000 rpm. The problem, of course, was to REDUCE the timing at higher RPMs because 7.5 psi endangers detonation so had boost time retard system for that purpose. Your car would not detonate but you could induce damaging knock.

    2) With only 2 more octane points I doubt you would notice very much improvement in any event. Perhaps 1 tenth in a quarter mile run if the timing curve was fully optimized for 93 octane.

    3) I doubt the system adjusts the fuel air mixture. It is possible it could do so and enrich if the O2 sensor is run through your new computer. Again,any gain would be only noticable at low rpm. The mechanical fuel injection can be adjusted with a screw that is buried deep in fuel distribution unit. However, the O2 sensor will always try to trim the mixture back to the emissions optimum. Accordingly, you would need to adjust beyond whatever amount the 02 sensor could add or subtract.

    My car had a rotten egg smell when I first got it but that was because it was all carboned up. I used lots of carbon cleaners [every tank for thousand of miles plus high rpm running] and the smell went away and power went WAY up from decreased exhaust restriction. So I enrichened the adjustment screw by 1/8 turn simply to ensure the O2 sensor was not adjusting from a lean condition to its emissions setting but would instead adjust from a slightly richer condition. The smell did not return but I never added any more rich adjustment even so.

    I suppose one could disconnect the 02 sensor. And adjust for rotten egg smell at which time you would notice its a bit rich. A little bit rich won't hurt anything but a BAD smell means the cat could overheat.

    Our cars are rather vigorously tuned to begin with. 260 or 270 hp from a 3.2 without vvt is respectable even today. I test drove a 3.6 caddy vvt back in 2007 and it was a dog. Not only did it drive like a dog it was rated at about the same horse power as my 3.2, perhaps less.

    Engine tuning has improve since 2007 but even the modern Acura TSX 3.6 is only rated at 280 or 290 hp, if my memory does not fail me. I recently out ran one of them in the straight by a small amount. But then of course The Purple Ones are faster! ;)

    Does the new control mechanism adjust timing in a more aggressive way? That is one thing that might make some small difference. I believe our cars are set for 91 octane but even that I am not certain of. An additional 2 points provided with 93 octane would likely have very little noticeable effect. Based on my experience experimenting with such things you might get the following.

    1) A boost in torque below 3,000 rpm. I bumped my supercharge Mark VII base timing from 10 btdc to 14 and changed from 87 octane to 93. I had an "A/B" switch and the bump was quite noticeable below 3,000 rpm. The problem, of course, was to REDUCE the timing at higher RPMs because 7.5 psi endangers detonation so had boost time retard system for that purpose. Your car would not detonate but you could induce damaging knock.

    2) With only 2 more octane points I doubt you would notice very much improvement in any event. Perhaps 1 tenth in a quarter mile run if the timing curve was fully optimized for 93 octane.

    3) I doubt the system adjusts the fuel air mixture. It is possible it could do so and enrich if the O2 sensor is run through your new computer. Again,any gain would be only noticable at low rpm. The mechanical fuel injection can be adjusted with a screw that is buried deep in fuel distribution unit. However, the O2 sensor will always try to trim the mixture back to the emissions optimum. Accordingly, you would need to adjust beyond whatever amount the 02 sensor could add or subtract.

    My car had a rotten egg smell when I first got it but that was because it was all carboned up. I used lots of carbon cleaners [every tank for thousand of miles plus high rpm running] and the smell went away and power went WAY up from decreased exhaust restriction. So I enrichened the adjustment screw by 1/8 turn simply to ensure the O2 sensor was not adjusting from a lean condition to its emissions setting but would instead adjust from a slightly richer condition. The smell did not return but I never added any more rich adjustment even so.

    I suppose one could disconnect the 02 sensor. And adjust for rotten egg smell at which time you would notice its a bit rich. A little bit rich won't hurt anything but a BAD smell means the cat could overheat.

    Our cars are rather vigorously tuned to begin with. 260 or 270 hp from a 3.2 without vvt is respectable even today. I test drove a 3.6 caddy vvt back in 2007 and it was a dog. Not only did it drive like a dog it was rated at about the same horse power as my 3.2, perhaps less.

    Engine tuning has improve since 2007 but even the modern Acura TSX 3.5 is only rated at 280 or 290 hp, if my memory does not fail me. I recently out ran one of them in the straight by a small amount. But then of course The Purple Ones are faster! ;) Part of the Prugna Mystique!
     
  7. Rapalyea

    Rapalyea Formula 3

    Jun 18, 2013
    1,511
    Georgia Mountains US
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    David Rapalyea alias
    Sequential port injection is the best. Continuous flow is probably the next best if all injecotors are working well. Throttle body provides a uniform air/fuel mixture and cars run well, but anything in the air flow is a problem. The earliest Vette C4 had something called "cross fire injection" which was simple TWO throttle body units ganged together sort of like "dual quads".

    Carbs might be esthetically pleasing. And of course their close proximity to the intake valves provides intake tuning for high rpm. But four separate carbs? I have two separate carbs on my 1965 Corvair [some came with four] and that is MORE then enough for me. However, their close proximity to the intake ports does provide decent power curve and throttle response for the era. All 110 hp of it from a 2.8!

    Talk about dogs. But a fun little puppy none the less.
     
  8. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

    Dec 6, 2012
    1,839
    UK
    The 308 engine took a dive in power when it went over to the Bosch K Jetronic hence the need to go over to 32 valves which redressed the power issue. Therefore it surely follows that a return to carbs would improve power....in theory. One Chap already did it to his Mondial here, it was called 'The Beast' I believe...
    As for multiple carbs! I love them, my Countach has 6 twin choke down draughts and they are super smooth and super reliable... never need tuning.
     
  9. Rapalyea

    Rapalyea Formula 3

    Jun 18, 2013
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    #9 Rapalyea, May 12, 2015
    Last edited: May 12, 2015
    I googled SDS and they seem still in business selling to Ford owners.

    My suspicion is the previous owner knew what he was doing with this vehicle. If the vehicle runs well I would consider it in a heart beat.

    http://www.wmsracing.com/wmsweb/sds.html

    PS: The throttle position sensor looks just like the one on my supercharged Mark VII.
     
  10. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula 3
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    Jun 1, 2004
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    Aaron Bunch
    That is port injection not TBI. You guys are funny. Complaining about TBI because you read something on the Internet and the whole time not knowing enough to spot the individual injectors on the motor.

    Aaron
     
  11. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

    Jul 26, 2009
    5,401
    Ahwatukee, AZ
    I don't see the injectors, wouldn't they be under that rail if they are there.

    Looks to me like the fuel line goes right to the section between the throttle body and the plenum. That's why I made my comments.

    Aaron, you are right. I hadn't looked at the pictures on the link, only the one posted. I do see the electronic injectors. Good stuff.
     
  12. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula 3
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    The spacer between the throttle body and the intake plenum is just to give more room (barely) for the fuel rails. I just installed a similar one, along with fuel rails and electronic injectors on my new setup today.

    Aaron
     
  13. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula 3
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    Btw SDS is some old old tech. It has a tiny hand held programmer with a two line display....because laptops were too expensive.
     
  14. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,948
    The Cold North
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    Carbs are garbage. Sure they make a good noise, but so inefficient compared to fuel injection. There is a reason why they have gone the way of the dinosaur. A port fuel injected Ferrari off this era is a massive improvement. Why anybody would want to play with a carb is beyond me.
     
  15. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

    Dec 6, 2012
    1,839
    UK
    #15 Bell Bloke, May 13, 2015
    Last edited: May 13, 2015
    Carbs are garbage....mmm a little bit strong maybe ha ha, carbs have many virtues, however yes
    I agree carbs are not as good as a new style injection system but they are better than the KJetronic, that was my point.
    I think adding after market injection systems whilst technically better devalue the car and seriously put off buyers.
    Also it's a matter of trust that the person who installed and set up the system did it correctly. If it was done incorrectly permanent engine damage could be the result, ie engine run lean in the set up stages etc.
    It would be upto a buyer of a modified engine to be confident in the abilities of the bloke that set it up but in the end it is still a substantial modification and with values going the way they are original cars will be the more prized ones I think.
     

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