The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I think you should go back in the garge and play with your fake P4
Leave the big toys to the big boy's. You are runing a good thing with your constant baddgering of somthing you know nothing about. Let the research speak for it's self. How can you possiably make such comments about a car you have not seen for yourself. It makes me sick. Mr.G did not have to post a damn thing on this site regarding his project but he chose to because he thought people would find it interesting to watch a resto of a great raceing machine. You have effectivly runied that for everybody on this site. Way to go captian fake...A standing ovation for you and your insecurities.

Tom

 

I agree with Tom and others. I had the pleasure of lunch with Jim when I was in NY last, and have had numerous discussins with him. He does not strike me as one who is trying to pull wool over anyone's eyes, as he has no reason to. His sincerity is coeval.

That said, whether or not he decides to show you whatever documents he has are up to him. Showing them to you achieves NOTHING (you are certainly not a historian), and even if Piper remarks on them in a manner which you are hoping (that JG is lying about what he said), it still achieves NOTHING other than you leaving a sour taste in everyone's mouth.

Unless you are Piper himself, and have certain claims to make, STFU. Bully for you that you can hang out with him. I think it says something of JG when he need not defend himself as others are willing to do so. And has he has stated the car isn't for sale (Jim... we need to talk about that ), it makes no difference WHAT the car is to anyone other than himself.

What I find most amusing is that somone looking to make a replica for his own purposes (good for you, more than I am mechanically able to do), with the possible intention of financial gain or at the very least, a desire to pass off what isn't real, has the gall and moxy to call someone antithetical one of his own.

--Dan

 

I dropped a clue/hint earlier - for the doubters to seek and find.

Alberto Pedretti

Alberto Pedretti is the mechanic that Enzo Ferrari sent over to help Chinetti open up the US market and someone who has as much hands on knowledge about older Ferrari's as anyone in the world.

This is the very same Alberto Pedretti that went with 'Napolis to inspect it - and personally inspected everything - after he was done arguing for 20 minutes with Piper about whose fault it was that the 250LM Piper was driving and Pedretti was in charge of - broke down early in LeMans. Need I mention that as the Inspection commenced, Piper was fetching the blueprints that Enzo Ferrari personally gave him?

Back to who this man is - This is the same Alberto Pedretti who convinced Campagnolo to recast the size Ferrari went to when they converted two P4's to CanAm cars (350 Can Am) - 11X15 front and 15X15 rear P4 wheels - all for 'Napolis when he had them redone in those sizes. Incidentally, 'Napolis had to buy 2 sets & they weren't cheap at $3,000 each wheel.

Alberto Pedretti doesn't have a problem with this - neither do other Authoritive Experts who have been cited and quoted - with their blessing and permission.

Neither does Ferrari have a problem - for example, Ferrari recast the uprights.

'Napolis will publish something - with that in mind, I don't want to rehash what has already been stated time (and again) - as I don't wish to give away too many "spoilers." What I know can be what you know if you simply look at all the original archive information which I posted with 'Napolis's blessing - all in an effort to educate, inform and most importantly - prevent 'Napolis from wasting his time repeating himself. After all, he is as businessman as businessman gets.

Simply put - If you're questioning whether this frame and this engine have had sex before - The chassis is stamped with 0846 - The engine is also correct. They have mated when and where it counted to collector, enthusiast, expert, historian, mechanic of the highest order alike - and they are mating again after getting cleaned up.

Don't make what isn't dirty - dirty. It's a beautiful thing, and much, much more - it oozes sex.

 

It sure is beautiful

I am lost slightly. Are we saying that the car is now stamped with 0846. I wonder where that might be.

Like I said many times before. David built the car, he knows every nut, bolt, washer, panel, part etc. He would surely remember where the stamp on the chassis said 0846. Where is it stamped 0846???

The chassis was made alongside my chassis and incidentally at the same time. Perhaps my car also has 0846 stamped somewhere on it??? I may go and have a really good look.

In the meantime I think it would be a great shame for the other readers not to enjoy seeing the pics of JG's absolutely fabulous car.

But are we to keep quiet if we think the car isn't real? Are we to keep quiet if we think it is real? This is the age of communications and free speach, I think we should just say it like we see it.

For example a car much like JG's was raced at Killarney not long ago, sadly its 3.0 litre engine was not able to keep up a good pace, but it sounded wonderful. I wonder wherer that car is now. I must have a scratch about and see...........

 

Here you go.
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=126941&postcount=157

 

Geeeee Why all the anger and spite at P4racer? He has not accused Jim of anything. He has been civil in his posts. He has asked interesting questions and he clearly has some interest and knowledge on the P4 subject. He never claimed to be an immenint historian or anything. He is just interested in the authenticity of Jims car. As am I.... as is Jim... as is everyone. We all realise and acknowledge that Jims car is pretty much the most awesome thing ever seen and as much a "P4" as anything out there. Heck... it IS a P4. The question is how much of it is original to 0846. Why is that an evil question?

I sure dont blame Jim for not posting legal documents and such. If a book is in the works, posting its juicy contents prior to publishing wouldnt exactly be a wise move.

I have tried to keep up with all the posts on this subject simply because I love the P4 and think Jim is an incredible guy for sharing all this with us. I dont recall Jim saying the chassis was actually stamped as 0846. He said it showed signs of repair and such that would be consistent with the known history of 0846 and he said some other parts and such indicated 0846.

There are lots of really cool old Ferraris out there with BIG stories. I remember reading about a pontoon fendered 250TR that had been restored to concours condition. Amazing car. However, in the early 1970s this car was in a barn that burned to the ground and the car was "destroyed". ITs remains were bulldozed into a hole and buried. 15 years later or so.... it was located and dug up. There were some remains.... rusted and twisted metal chassis members and such. This "car" was restored back to perfection. Is it a real 250TR? It has a chassis plate that says so and is original. Is there much of the original car actually left? hehehehe I guess that depends on what "much" means.... Is this 250TR any less fun, cool, gorgeous or correct? Heck no. Jims car may end up with a legitimate claim as 0846, but as he has said it will never be "no stories".

Heck, Jim has made it more clear than anyone that HE loves the research, archeology and detective work going on here and all he wants is to piece together the real history. Given that, I cant see Jim being bothered at others questions and interest into the particulars....

I think the coolest thing would be to see David Piper himself posting here. Heck.... get that man a computer! What a great addition to the community to have his insite.



Terry

 

TSpringer

Actually if you read P4's posts here and in other threads he has pointedly aimed his words in very accusatory tone and has come off as a bit agressive on the heritage of Jim's car....

Also
Adding Piper would make this an interesing thing... YUP!

 

Guys
Several Times I have stated that David NEVER represented to me that the chassis in my car contains ANY part of the remains of 0846.
Obviously if he had he wouldn't have sold it to me for the price he did.
I believe that forensic examination that occured AFTER I bought the car shows that it does. This investigation is on going. I've shared the basis of my beliefs with various experts including Ferrari for quite sometime.
Max feels that David wouldn't have possibly missed something like that.
I believe that he did.

Wax
Regarding the wheel size. When the P4's were raced by Ferrari they ran on
narrower wheels. David built my car " into a 1967 Ferrari 330 P4". (His words; from the parts he listed in the document I alluded to) . From 1974 until I bought it, he raced it in " various events around the world". David, not Ferrari used wider wheels on my car. Last night I had a long talk with someone who worked for David at the time. He explained why. At the time he told me David did a lot of tire testing for Goodyear and that after 1967 Goodyear and others were developing wider racing tires which required wider wheels. Indeed,
Ferrari used these wider wheels when they converted two of the P4's into 350 Can Am's. To me David's using wider wheels is an important part of my car's history. When I bought the car it had these wider wheels (mag). The reason I had them recast in Alloy is as I'm not going to race this car but instead drive it on the street I felt alloy is safer.
By using the wider wheels, the size that David used, I'm not restoring out the
changes David made to my car. As I've said many times I admire David and his building up of my car and his continuing to race it long after Ferrari had tossed it away. Do check out "inside Ferrari" It has great photos of tossed Ferrari heritage.

 

writerguy.....

The internet and chat rooms are tough when it comes to guaging intent and attitude. We have no voice inflection, no means of showing sarcasm, and its difficult to be direct and show tact. Simply limitations of the medium. Thus, I tend to grant tons of leeway when interpreting someones emotions and attitude associated with a post or topic. Perhaps too much at times, but better to give the benefit of the doubt than to miss out on a good debate.

An interesting point regarding Jims last post is that given David never represented the car as containing any 0846 parts, Jim never expected or anticipated finding any 0846 specific stuff. Why would he? Still, during the rebuild clearly things became apparent that indicate some tangible links to 0846. The simple fact that Jim would have had no reason to suspect this or anticipate it going into the rebuild makes the discoveries more interesting.

Of coarse Jim if you tire of the debate too much and just decide to wash your hands of the whole thing.... perhaps I could interest you in an even swap for a nice Daytona?


Terry

 

Tom

You would be quite right of course, someone who hasnt seen the car is no position to judge it at all. I didnt realise that you had seen the car, and im dreadfully sorry if I have offended you by making comments that you found clearly offensive.

But just so you know, I have seen the car many many many times. It was created by a great friend of mine, and im sure JG has every intention of ensuring this magnificent machine is restored to its full potential. Not only have I seen it I have been in it. It really is a wonderful vehicle.

I have no interest in constant badgering, I have said my bit and I will be glad not to say anymore on the subject. Oddly I own the sistership to this car. so on this subject, if none other, I feel I know a little more than perhaps even you. I have posted a little picture of my other P4, the sistership to JG's car, though still a way off completion.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Yes, no more on the subject, it seems to have run its course.

 

Sorry I am totally lost on the financial gain part. I race cars, one looks like a P4. I need sponsors to keep racing, is that a crime. Not where I come from. But like I said enough on the subject.

 

Moving right along.
My car at home with friend.
The windshield is very trick. The frame into which it's mounted unscrews allowing access.

 

OMG! Mr. G., just how close are you to the end...? Awesome...!

 

Can't wait to see it..!

 

Sexy B!tch!!!

--Dan

 

Napolis, Can you post any picture of 360 spider?¿It´s grigio or blue california?
Good job of restoration, Congarts!
Thanks!

 

Jim,

Have you sat in her yet and gone brmmm, BRMMMM, BRMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Pete

 

I'm sure that Jim is planning to recoup some of his restoration costs by selling tickets to people so that THEY can sit in the P4 and go VRROOOMM, VRROOOMM. "All ticket holders please note that turning the steering wheel while VRROOMMing is an extra charge. No clutching or shifting allowed, thank you".

 

Our baby's growing so fast... and blossoming into a real beauty.

'Napolis, what were the easiest/most difficult portions of this stage of the game?

 

Do you mean that they can actually push the accelerator and let the P4 speak ... or just make noices (er, hopefully) out of their mouths

****, I'd pay a fair amount of money to sit in her and make her soul go VRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM ... and I'll even watch the rev limit too

Pete

 

Abavai
The 360's a friends. I don't know the exact color.
Pete/Arlie
When I was 14 I used to ride my bike 14 miles each way to Mr. Chinetti's Dealership. He was very nice and let me look around, sit in, and air shift the race cars. One day when it was time to go home and raining he even gave me a NART team jacket, which I still have. I've spent many hours going Vroom, Vroom.
Wax
Slow and steady.
Nose and tail are off. Major cleaning underway. We'll start putting back the wiring next week. Bit by Bit... Saturday's at the shop are a time for capachino and figuring it out.

 

Jim, all I can say is I thought I had seen the sleekist thing around wearing blue paint. This red one is surely a rival to my eye's delight. But, I still think Ol'Blue is the best. Of course, seeing it every day of the week does influence my opinion.

 

It's like my children I love both of them equally.

 

Corners shimmed, spares stowed, brake, clutch lines being put back. Wiring, pedals, etc...