Flame me, but the 355 Challenge is the best all around track car...

good points re not needing extra capabilities true race cars offer but i still dont get the argument for a non race track car. wasnt the challenge series started to showcase the track capabilities of ferrari street cars with most mods only safety related? given most track day drivers amature abilities, i wonder how much difference there would be when driving a stock challenge vs a street 355 with track brake pads and slicks?

 

Rob,
I know a couple of guys that have tracked their street 355's. Both of them stated they needed TWO cars. One to drive while the other was in the shop!! Your post on how reliable your car has been has my interest. I have been thinking of selling my Z06 and getting a 355 as a daily driver but in no way do I want a car that will spend it's life (and all my money) in the shop. Even the guys at the dealership say these cars require a lot of service.
And feedback on this?

Rick

 

Thanks Rob,
After owning and working on my F40, it has made me also want a more civilized Ferrari. Not that the F40 HAS to be a beast all the time, just maybe something with leather interior and a radio might be nice once in a while
The best bolt on a Corvette is no where near as nice as the worse bolt on a Ferrari...... Really nice hardware on these cars.

Rick

 

Rob, here's my counter-argument. The problem with using your 355C racecar as a track car is that its too fast... so, you spend most of your time waiting on traffic, and much less of your time keeping the car on the edge (its edge). In that sense, most people will learn more and faster in a slower car, where they are constantly pushing the car just to keep up with the faster cars around them. (But you don't want too slow, either... otherwise, you spend all your time looking in your rearview and giving passing signals.)

Second point... as far as ease of use... you can't drive to/from the track... you have to put it on a trailer. And you do a lot of the maintenance yourself. I have no time for maintenance... its a lot easier when I can just drive the car to the track and just drive the car to the shop.

With all that said... I largely agree with you, Rob... your 355C, with its great looks, stellar history, and built-in reliable performance, is an AWESOME track car for someone setup for trailering and doing his own basic maintenance.

Yes, that's one thing I've been struggling with on my soon-to-arrive Stradale. Do I put some good, unique racing stripes on it?

For its street car duty, the answer would be "no way"... I like the understated but dramatic look.

However, for shows... the Ferraris with numbers or stripes have much more appeal and interest... for that my answer would be "yes". (Yours, Rob, has that added history factor... making it really cool for shows... REALLY cool... okay, I'm a tad jealous. )

For the track, I could go either way.


Brian

 

My Challenge 355 has not seen much of the shop either. I had the big service done a month ago since I had some engine leaks that I wanted fixed but that is about it. Once brake rotors and bleeding every now and then.

As for street 355s, I have had no bad experience either. They are in fact very reliable and just as drivable as your Corvette. Yes you do have a big service every 15K Miles or 5 years but so what.

 

Last weekend Rob was doing 1:56 and change at TWS in a full out challenge, big brakes, cooling, slicks (Hooser? with several heat cycles). Two weeknds before I was doing 2:05s in a bone stock (right down to the air filters) F355B on S03s. R-compounds are supposed to be 5-6 seconds at TWS, Slicks another 3 at TWS. This puts the Challenge suspension at (only) 2 seconds per lap over the stock suspension.

The stock suspension is undersprung but beautifully shocked for track driving. Extreme smoothness in driving avoids using the springs that aren't there. Full racing slicks would take 8-odd seconds off lap times, and the spring, shock, lowered chasssis, and alignment would do the last 2 seconds. Thats right only 2 seconds, but the feel would be of composure instead of driving over the edge on ice all the time. The only part required to run an F355 on the track and approach track-record-times-on-street-tires is brake pads and associated fresh fluid.

Why? An undersprung rear end has gentle and catchable breakaway characteristics. Traction is higher with softer springs, but extreme smoothness is required to avoid pushing the suspension into alignment issues (Camber breakaway). While a challenge setup requires more driver input and faster driver responses to traction inputs, it is easier to slide the car around and recover since the suspension is not moving around so much. If you can drive without leaning heavily on the suspension and shocks, softer has more absolute traction, if you cannot, the harder is easier to drive at slightly reduced traction levels.

Given most amateurs lack of time on a track, most amateurs will be much better served by learning to drive a completely stock car (especially true if its a Ferrari in the first place) with STREET TIRES--you will learn faster on streets than on r-comps or slicks. After 1000 laps or so, as you get within 3 seconds per lap of the best cars on street tires, then its time to move up to R-compounds, after a season on r-comps it MAY be time to move up to a full track car.

I am routinely running down 360F1 on r-comps in a 95 F355B M6 on streets, often passing them twice in a 20 minute session. Its not the car that gets the last 10 seconds of lap time.

 

Hm that is why everybody is lapping me...

 

What I really like about my 355CH is that it's road registered and has the air conditioning IN and the roll cage OUT. Soften the shocks and I have a good ride on the road...LOVE the noise and stiffen the shocks for the track and I have a great car for the track with NO...ZERO...NIL.... brake fade...the downside of most Ferraris on the track. The only car I'd seriously replace it with is a Stradale.

 

I happen to love the 355CH and wish I could fit in one. But if you really want a seat of the pants all-out experience the 360CH is the one to learn to drive. VERY unforgiving of mistakes like TTO (unlike the 355CH which is catchable in a slide), but once you get it right the sheer grip and power are amazing. Unfortunately the running costs are amazing as well.

Having said that I agree everyone should start out in a street car with street tires before moving to a Challenge/Radical/Stohr etc. Street tires on a 360 give much more feedback via sound and feel than slicks. I have been able to catch many slides and prevent spins on street tires with a stock 360 (the additional weight helps too). The light 360CH with slicks will go into an uncatchable spin much faster, with little/no warning (from my personal bitter and expensive experience) and requires very delicate throttle modulation. But as I said above, when I'm "on" the only things that can get by are 333's, well-driven F-40LM's and Ippolliti's monster 355.

 

Rob and others,

Aero undertrays and F1 gearboxes:

The 355c was the first Ferrari with working aero undertray. Do you guys think is really andds anyhting to the cars peformance since most of our speeds are under 150mph? I can understand the benefits of a tuned rear wing but the undertray becomes less effective as the car is lowered right? Anyone with experience of standard 355c with 355c with a wing? Also, What say you guys with the f1 gearboxes? Comments from 360c drivers is that the f1 gb allows the driver to tuck the rear back in by downshifting faster and smoother than manual if you happen to have the rear starting to let go. It is kinda like having momentary rear brakes that just scoot the rear back in line just a bit for those 10/10ths days on the track.

 

I actually tracked my 355 when it was still a mildly modified street car both with and without a wing.

Where the wing made the most difference that I could ascertain was under braking. Without the wing you had to brake the 355 in a straight line from very high speed or the tail would get bent out of shape.

At Summit Point there is a fast sweeping increasing radius downhill turn that ends at turn 5 which is a 15-20 mph hour turn (very tight). You basically must slow the car down from 115-120 to a complete stop.

Without the wing you had to be careful not to start braking before the car was straight otherwise the tail would wiggle. This limited you speed down the "chute" as it's called. With wing installed (again this is still a street 355) you could start braking before the car was straight without any tail wiggle.

In terms of added downforce with the wing on a standard 355 I would say the gains aren't as great as on a 355C because you are still be limited by the street suspension which has tons more body roll than the Challenge suspension.

It's hard to compare since I was a much more skilled driver when the 355 C.

In terms of the undertray....one inaccutate statements. You want the car as low as possible to utilize the diffusers. Basically a diffuser takes the air coming in from the front of the car and speeds it up. Towards the back of the car it slows the air down again and compresses the air (creating downforce) by exiting the rear of the car.

You want the car as low as possibly to properly utilize the diffuser.

In terms of how effective all this is on a car at less than 100 is quite debateble especially without a rear wing. The rear wing in conjunction with a diffuser works best because the rear wing helps compress and slow down the air flow at the back.

One of the reasons the 360C is hard to drive at the limit is that it has no rear wing and the diffuser system at the rear of the car isn't as effective. If you have to lift in the 360C at the limit in a turn the air underneath gets badly disrupted and downforce is lost. The first 360C race at Homestead in 01 saw 12 cars crashed because of this.

For a reference point, I lost a rear diffuser on my F355 Challenge at Pocono (high speed oval) leaving the pits (I didn't know it). It was only when I was going through turns 1,2 and 3 which are all taken at well over 120 that I noticed the car was pushing badly. Also down the straights which are taken at close to 170 mph+ I noticed a lot of front end lift.

Despite this I finished the session and was only about 2 seconds per lap slower.

Keep in mind I was driving on the limit doing speeds ranging from 150-170 on the oval section to 40-80 in the infield. I didn't notive anything in the infield section.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod
www.flatoutracing.net

 

Are you running some form of Ferraris F1 traction control?????

Hmmmm.......you know what Skip Barber says.......if you haven't spun it you haven't driven it fast enough!!

Cheers,

Jon (whose spun his 355C a few times and has the repair receipts to prove it)

Rob: next step up for you should be a GT class car (360 ?). I recently got 6 lap test drive laps in a 02 spec Porsche GT3 RS. Not even pushing it it was 4 seconds per lap faster than the 355 Challenge. It was unbelievable. I imagine the 360GT would be just as intoxicating and fast to drive.