Talk it up Rubens, talk it up ...

This discusiion about Sato and Ferrari is a moot discusion. It ain't going to happen!

The only reason why Sato is in f1 is because he has much needed sponsorship from Honda. Ferrari do not need Honda's money. End of story. Sato's podium hopes will end once BAR goes back to becoming a garbage back runner team next year.

 

And why did this tension exist? Not because the Ferrari drivers were battling each other, but because they actually had some competition from other teams. So why are you so critical of the choice that Ferrari made to have a clear number 1. That is not why the races are boring. The races are boring because no other team is consistantly good enough to challenge Ferrari. THAT is not RB's fault. While it might be true that if MS and RB really raced, the races would be more interesting that would still not give you the tension you are looking for. With the current state of things they would be battling for 1-2. Still Ferrari dominance. Still ultimately boring.

 

No doubt... but that's not the point of the discussion... the point is "if some of you got what you're asking for, you'd be complaining even more than now".

Where do you get all that. Sato is damned fast and very aggressive; damned immature in the racing tactics; but damned fast. It'll be interesting to see him develop.

And why do you predict BAR Honda is destined to become a "garbage back runner team next year"? Assuming they maintain their current commitment levels to F1, I see Toyota and Honda continuing to rise in the sport. The quality of engineering and manufacturing in those two companies is some of the best in the world; they are drawing on and leveraging experience in multiple racing series; and as their success rises, so will their ability to attract top drivers.

The addition of APAC races this season coupled with Honda's success and Toyota's advances may generate a lot more interest in that region, and thus further bolster those companies' resources and support. I think this year may go down as a major shift of power/focus from Europe towards APAC. After MS retires in a few years, the European teams may be most focused on keeping up with the Japanese teams rather than just battling each other.

 

Here is why I think BAR Honda will end up as a garbage back runner again:

I do not think BAR Honda made any great leaps in improvement this year. The only thing they did was to reamain consistent with their devlopment.

Wht actually happened was that McLaren and BMW Williams took a nose dive. You may remember that before the season started Ferrari were being very pessemistic and were bracing for a huge challenge from Mclaren and Williams. But that never materialized.

So what I am saying is the BAR Honda has shown comparative improvement only because McLaren and Williams have fallen back. Once Williams and McLaren are back on track next year, BAR Honda will have to settle for 4th or 5th even behind Renault!

The current plight of McLaren and Williams is making that glorified Honda outfit look good. They would not have stood a chance if Kimi and Ralf had a better car to race with.

Also let us not forget... Japanese teams!?!? There is nothing like a Japanese team in F1.
Current Addresses:
B.A.R F1 Team, Brackley, NN13 7BD, England
Toyota F1, Toyota Alle 7, 50858 Koln-Marsdorf, Germany

A true Japanese team would be based in Japan... these are European manged teams with Japanese money and engines. As I said glorified Honda and Toyota teams!

 

You're almost right on those points: Both teams do get their engines from Japan. Also Toyota gets its management directives from Japan. That's why they suck right now despite the biggest budget. Not that Japanese management is bad or anything, but they're too far away. Toyota has realized that finally and is changing its structures for next year. God help us, when they become competitive!

All our bickering (mine included) about Ferrari's parade laps will be moot at that point: Ferrari will have to stretch its legs to meet that challenge. But luckily Toyota isn't there yet.


As far as BAR is concerned: I think they're not going backwards. They too did some restructuring a couple of years ago (Richards mentioned that in the Indy interview) and are probably going to stay competitive. What Honda is doing is anybody's guess. I would speculate, that once they see Toyota cream the rest of F1, their competitive urge will drive them to an all out war.

We have seen Japanese dominance in motor bikes and in CART engines. I wouldn't be surprised if they get serious about F1 this decade.

PS: Rumours have it, that Briatore (along with Alonso) will join Toyota for 2006 and run that team. Memories of Benetton 94 come to mind.

 

I see your point regarding that if the japanese get serious about if F1 with a REAL Japanese team, based in Japan, they can achieve good things. But this current mish mash of having Toyota Team "actually a Germany based team" and a Honda / "BAR" English Team is too complicated for the management to create a winning team. Maybe after 5 or 10 years if things fall into the right place.

I still think the plight of McLaren and Williams is making BAR look good. They would not stand a chance of a 3rd place if Williams had their act together. McLaren deserve to be where they are. And next year with JPM joining them they will deserve to be in a bigger hole than now.

I wish both Briatore and Alonso stay at Renault. People marginalize what those Renault engines and engineers can do. After all, it was Benetton powered by Renaults that gave Michael his first two world drivers' championships. Toyota will give Briatore the money he needs to win but they will never give him the space. He will have to constantly report to Japanese management who would be worried about advertising campaign quality, worker morale, sushi, the type of paper being used, eco firendliness and other useless stuff. That man Briatore has got one hell of a rock star lifestyle. I do not think anyone enjoys themselves on the F1 circuit as much as he does. He wont take any BS from Japanese auditors asking hm for reports every 5 minutes.

 

LOL

Actually I think that is what Toyota realized and they will remain European with a guy like Briatore calling the shots. That's the only way they can become competitive.

I agree with you on Renault. I'd much rather see Briatore and Alonso there than with Toyota.

 

F1 is a hard sell right now. Not just the Ferrari dominance and the lack of fighting between MS and RB. The whole package sucks: The aeros and tires make passing difficult, the new cookie cutter tracks lack charisma, the old ones have been castrated with chicanes. We only have one running champion in the field and for the most part the drivers act like robots and corporation speakers. And all bundled nicely together as a 2 hour show by Bernie. Heaven forbid to red flag a race as we might miss plane connections and satellite windows.

Compare that to the eighties with turbos galore, dangerous tracks, wild characters on and off track, multiple champions duking it out and access of the fans to their heros (yeah, you read correctly). None of that has anything to do with Ferrari's current dominance.

So yes, it is boring right now, but that's not just Ferrari's or MS' fault (and they can't be blamed for their competition being loosers).

F1 needs a radical makeover. Or as one of my friends states: Somebody has to put Ecclestone out of his misery. For the sake of F1...

 

Interesting points. Very interesting actually.

The chief designer of the Enzo was Japanese as well. Of course purists can now berate the design of the Enzo. I think it is the coolest Ferrari since the 355, but that's besides the point.

Ferrari has sucked, true. However you omit to mention that they're the only team to participate in all the years of F1 World Championship racing (and I picked year deliberately as they haven't participated in all the races). That's what makes them glorious in my book, regardless of success.

Your point about them not winning everything despite being so centered (and not necessarily focused) on motorsports is well taken. Maybe the driver you're referring to was Lauda. At any rate he did say that for sure. And others as well. But that's where the charisma comes into. We don't want perfect winning machines (= Schumacher), or perfect cars (=Toyota), but a bit of Italian charme and chaos. At least once in a while. I don't want Alesi (only half Italian I know) or Larini all the time either, just once in a while.

Your point about Enzo is right. He would turn the current winning team into chaos. You're also right that the reason they're winning is because they operate now like a freakin' English team. At least an English team of the Mc Laren/Williams class, not of lovely Jordan.

 

Again "you are hearing me, but you are not listening"

Japanese engine Vs Real Japanese Team big difference
One Succesful Japanese engineer Vs Complete Real Japanese TEAM of engineers that are succeful in F1 = big difference

Bar Honda and Toyota are based in England and Germany respectively. To have a succesful team you can really call Japanese it must be based in Japan.
European and Japanese management do not get along well. example: Current problems at Toyota.
For that Matter American and European management do not get long well. example: Current Jaguar "FORD" team problems.

I would like to Quote the great Racing Driver Rubens on this one. He once said, if you come to the Ferrari factory, you will think you are at the United Nations. There are French, Japanese, English, German, Australian and many other nationalities all working together, but Ferrari is an Italian team and I drive an Italian car.

See problem with "Japanese" teams is that they are not really Japanese. The team needs to be based in Japan to be called Japanese. Having an engine, money and a japanese driver does not make the team Japanese.

Now here is what you should read. I really hope you read this part:

I will be the first person to say this. If Formula 1 sees a real Japanese team, based in Japan with majority Japanese mangement and direction, then the rest of the F1 field will be blown away in about a couple of years. They are way too superior in terms of technology and money is no object for them. Ferrari will be pressed hard. But as it stands with a mixture of European / Japanese managenment, these so called "Japanese" teams actually based in Europe stand absolutely no chance.

But I still hold this arguement and I know I am right. The ONLY reason why SATO is in F1 is because of his Honda backing. He would not have been driving a F1 car had it not been for HONDA's sponsorship. Even the current BAR Team Head has stated that Sato is turning out to be simply too expensive due to his crashes and racing incedents.

 

Only time will tell...

But make sure you read my post on Japanese teams right above before answering.

 

I think you're right that Sato only got into F1/BAR because he is Japanese. He was no bright light at the beginning of his career. However since Suzuka last year he has learned a few things and I think the reason he is NOW in F1 is because of his merits.

Granted the BAR works a LOT better than ever, which is why Button AND Sato look good this year. But still I'm impressed with him. Since Indy he is now tied with Suzuki as the most successful Japanese F1 driver and I think he has ways to go.

As far as your other statements about BAR's future and Japanese management: I agree that Japanese firms know what they're doing, but I would still believe that F1 needs European blood to be successful (read: English blood). So I don't see BAR/Honda nor Toyota succeed if they are based solely out of Japan. I do however fear they will succeed once they cut their Japanase ties and become strictly European based (with Japan paying the bills). THAT's when Toyota will cream the rest of the world's car manufacturers, including our beloved Italian Stallion.

 

Pete, have I told you lately that I love you?

 

It seems like a game of IFs and Buts and maybes and many other hypothetical questions. All I know is Sato is not going to be driving a Ferrari. He could drive a Toyota for all I care, I don't think Sato will ever challenge a Ferrari driver for the world title. You can tell with these things and Sato is not World Champion material.

As for Japan and Japanese teams... real or European based... its their money. According to me they are wasting it by being based in Europe. Yes agreed the travel and logistics costs would be higher if the were based in Japan but they would have many home resources that they simply do not have in Europe. I have Ferrari blood flowing through me so I have no complaints when a competitor like Toyota or Honda does not finish a race due to driver error or mechnical failure.

I remember staying up at nights to watch f1 races on random European channels through my satellite dish, and then watching the Ferrari not finish the race or crash out or suffer mechnical failure. I have quite enjoyed F1 1999 and beyond. MS or no MS... my heart is Ferrari! Make no mistake, having MS on our side helps. I would not want to see him driving another car. That would be a nightmare... like when he was at Benetton. To me F1 is all about the constructor. The drivers add character to sport but its the engineers and developers that are the true champs. In my heart the true champs are Ferrari and I always want them to win. The sport can be boring as hell for the rest of you, I am selfish. I simply do not care, to me my happiness is the next Ferrari 1 - 2!!!

 

OK, it's confirmed now...YOU'RE AN IDIOT !!

 

Nice comments. How about crawling out from under that rock you've been hiding under for the past century! Is he "stupid" because he's Japanese, because he's an aggressive driver, or because he drives for BAR?

 

First of all - so what if the "Japanese" teams are located in Europe. Where do you think a majority of the tracks and races are located? Where do you think most of the historical success in chassis design, development, and aerodynamics has come from. Why do you think Penske and other American teams have ties to England? If that is where the expertise HAS been then that is where the Japanese are going to go to learn the trade.

ONCE they learn the trade well enough (over and above just engine development) they may then decide to move their operations back to Japan. Toyota is new to F1 and are starting from scratch. How many NEW teams in recent years have started from scratch and met with any kind of success? As for them not being a Japanese team - what is Toyota? An English team? Just because their operation is located in Europe does not make them a non-Japanese team. Who do you think funds the operation?

Contrary to your comment about a "true Japanese" team being from Japan versus elsewhere is ludicrous. F1 is an international sport. The best people to get the job done will come from a multitude of countries. Do you think Ferrari is an all Italian team? Last time I checked Jean Todt was not an Italian.

Sato is at Honda and in F1 because of Honda. Sato will STAY at Honda and in F1 because of SATO. Do you honestly beleive Honda - or any team - would keep a driver that did not have potential to win? Honda is not in F1 to support a Japanese driver. They are in F1 to win. Last time I checked Senna was winning in a Honda while Satoru Nakajima was driving a Ford? Honda must have been pro-Brazilian that year.

 

What I don't understand is that on two wheels the Japanese riders are pretty impressive and I think motorcycles allow the ability of the rider to take the bike a lot further. So if there is a good Japanese GP driver out there it shouldn't be a surprise, the japanese do have the talent.