I'm sure F1 is good for chasing that 0.2 seconds when the car is actually RACING FOR TITLE on the race track. But that does not apply to me. I drive my Ferrari mostly on the street and nothing beats the fun, the act of shifting, the stepping on the clutch, the Clink-Clang sound of the gated shifter........ you know, the "Kwon" of you are actually OPERATING this Ferrari. When I was in the market for my 360. I put a word out that I want nothing but a 6-speed. I end up paying almost $40000 over MSRP (yes, I was desperate) and no regrets because I got what I needed. I almost bought a 03 F1 Spider w/ every option at Ferrari OC. I'm sure I would be happy for the first week of purchase but would cry rest of the way because of the F1. So 6-Speed for me. By the way, I did drove a F1 coupe for 10 minutes and did want to continue driving, maybe I might like it more if I'd been on it for a little longer. But I seriously doubt it. My 0.0002
I always hear that argument- "real driving experience" being the big factor. I can shift my manual cars without using the left pedal... where does that leave me... You don't hear racecar drivers wanting the "real driving experience." They only want the real winning experience. Everything else is secondary. For some (in fact, for many) the real driving experience is a means to an end- who gets to the finish line first. Real drivers would sit on the nose of the car if it got them to the finish line quicker. You don't need a Ferrari to experience a clutch pedal. Practically any other car with a manual trans will suffice- and if the traditionalism of a clutch pedal outweigh the advantages of the F1 system for you, that is your perogative. For me, sports cars are supposed to be fast, and anything that makes them go faster is a good thing. Repeating your line, with a twist- I will put it in a simple way: The faster car is always more fun to drive than the slower one. FYI Jimmy540i- That .2 second differential, multiplied by 3, is the advantage- per shift.
sure. if you are a racer, and you drive your car like racer car on the street, then u SHOULD get the f1. although i am not aware there is a finish line on the street, lol. whatever makes u happy, no need to justify it to me.
The new 420 Monza will only be available with the F1 gear... . . . . but when it shifts there is a "cling-clang" sound from the speakers.... EHEHEH !!!! All my cents...
i just realized u drive a 355 f1, now, no offense, just wanna tell u my true opinion: if u say 360 f1 is a bit faster than 360 6sp cuz the f1 is fast shifting, ok, i buy it. i heard plenthy how f1 in 360 is a huge upgrade from 355. but if u want to tell me 355 f1 is faster than 355 6sp, i am not sure i will buy it. i test drove a 99' 355, the f1 is crap, compared to my smg m3. it was dull and shifting was slow. it did not really rev-matching on downsift unles i am on gas. i honestly doubt it will be faster shifting than a good driver in a 6sp. so i bought a 6sp eventually. thus, for enzo, stradale, i am sure the system is fast. for 355, i don't know.
no i have not. thus i am not making comments at all how F1 in 360 is compared to manual in 360. i can only say F1 in 355 is inferior to manual or other F1 system such as SMG II of BMW. now as for driving pleasure/experience for ME, i know i definitely prefer to have a clutch to play with.
To each his own. My opinion follows - When I was in the market for my 360 one dealer was trying to sell me on the F1 tranny and tells me I could get in an F1 car for the very first time and an experienced driver could get in a 6 speed and I could outshift him. That sold me on why I did NOT want an F1. I enjoy the process of learning the car. With a 6 speed, you have more things to learn about which makes it fun for me. It is a blast learing how to drive the car, shift the car and heel/toe the car and although the downshifts are not as precise as the F1, it's more gratifying. I go to the track to have fun, there is nothing to win...yes I want to be fast, but the bottom line is that it is all about fun. Now if I were competing for money I would want every advantage I could get, including an F1 tranny, to keep me focused on going as fast as possible. But I'm not so for me, the 6 speed is more enjoyable. Andy 00 360 Silver/Navy
That's funny! 355F1 is "pure crap"? M3 SMGII is what I got rid of last year. Had it for 3 months. Talk about pure crap. I don't know how you can live with that car- perhaps it's all the amenities like cup holders. I much preferred the E46M3 manual that I had prior. In either case the "anti-dive" (aka suspension binding) geometry sucks. SMGII has serious programming issues with the downshift in all the S modes- sometimes it will rev match, sometimes it will just drop the clutch without blipping- completely inconsistent. The paddles are placed in an awkward position and move with the steering wheel- encouraging far more use of the shifter stalk than the paddles since they are never in the same place. I have NEVER had those problems while driving my F1 equipped 355. To this day the actual 355F1 full throttle shift is faster than the later models which were slowed down for ride comfort. You obviously have never actually driven a 355F1 at full throttle.
I prefer the manual M3 too. I got SMG II because I just had to try the new technology. However I will still take it over the F1 system is 355 any day. Not sure why we are mentioning the suspension on M3, but ok. I seriously doubt you know much about the M3. The car is NOT programed to blip gas for rev-matching on downshift unless you are on gas. It you are accelarating or downshifting to gain speed, it blips gas and does PERFECT rev-matching. If you are slowing down or come to a stop and you downshift while off-gas or on brakes, it does NOT blip gas, it is not programmed to do so. Thus, what is not consistent?? To each his own. I personally hate to take my hands off the wheel while driving, so I much prefer to have paddles rotate with wheels. The position of paddles does not determine which transmission is a better system. Can you back that up? Do you have shifting time of 355 F1 and Modena F1 to compare, and prove 355 is faster?? Btw on a side note. SMG II in M3 shifts at 80 ms in S6 mode, while Modena F1 shifts at 150 ms, so M3 is almost twice as fast. I did. And that was the reason why I bought 355 in manual.
Your perogative. I wouldn't. Just some of the complaints I have about that car. There are a few, one being the seat is just plain uncomfortable (for me) for 1500 mile trips. Excuse me, the SMGII is programmed to blip to downshift under certain circumstances, not all? How is that consistent? F1 will blip when rpms need matching on downshifts- on EVERY downshift it acertain the necessity so that it will not upset the balance of the car on the downshift. SMGII will not. When the cars are driven hard, the last thing a driver needs is an inconsistent car. I've only owned an E46M3 for over 17 months. I've probably had far more tracktime in both an SMG M3 AND 355F1 than you have, having owned and really, REALLY driven both amongst my other cars that are track rats. I think that qualifies my opinion somewhat. How do you turn the wheel more than 180 degrees then? Where are the paddles? Can you reach for the proper paddle in the right place every single time you need to shift while steering? If there is any chance you can't shift properly, just once, then the paddle placement of the SMGII is at fault. That's something the F1 system avoids by keeping them in a fixed position-yet one less potential driver/car interface problem. And with current modern steering rack ratios in tin tops, shuffle steering is far more preferable in almost all situations. Can I back that up? The Team Maranello Concessionaires/Veloqx Motorsports Team Principal told me, and showed me proof over the last few months with the cars he owns- in fact that is how I was convinced to buy the 355 over a 360 or any Porsche. For those that don't know, TMC campaigned three 360GT racecars last year in FIA N-GT and Veloqx had 100% success rate in all ACO races last year, winning LeMans GTS in the 550 Maranello. Oh- and they finished LeMans in second and fifth places this year with the two Audi R8 chassis. They may have a slightly more informed view of both the 355, 360, and pretty much any car you may think of since they have pretty much every dream car. Yes, but with significantly less power and higher CG and larger mass the E46M3 will be left in the dust. I had two. I know that car's capabilities. And your braking downshifts are bog slow since you have to physically blip the throttle. And the 355 F1 system shifts faster than the 360 F1- from gear selection to being in that selected gear. The beauty of the F1 system is that it doesn't have a bazillion shifting modes- just two- manual and auto. Manual shift maps are determined by operating parameters- so if you are driving Ms. Daisy, it will shift so that Ms. Daisy won't be upset... and if you are driving like you should on a track, it will shift like you would on a track- that is, if you were a computer controlled, zero error driver with impeccable shifting skills. You sound like you were driving Ms. Daisy instead of really testing the 355 F1... That's why you can shift the car faster and more consistently than computer? That I have to see. Will you be at the FCA Laguna event in August? I will be there. Let's see how fast can consistent your shifting really is- like at T2 or at the top of the corkscrew...
i've owned a 2000 360F1 and two 2002 360F1's and now two 360 CS with F1. i put a total of 20,000+ miles on the modenas with absolutely no problems or complaints whatsoever. and i drove these cars daily and relatively aggressively. the F1 was a blast to drive. i am VERY happy with the 360 F1 gearbox.
you're right. you are old fashioned. but i still like to hear your opinion seriously though. have you had the opportunity to drive a 360 F1? it's a fantastic experience. a manual 6-speed is also fun, but it is a different kind of fun. the F1 gearbox just adds a new kind of fun to the driving experience. IMHO the F1 is even more fun than a manual gearbox!
then you'll probably be limiting yourself in the future. for instance, the 360CS and the enzo are both only available with F1 gearboxes. i don't think this decision was made by ferrari without an eye to the future. their goal is to develop the best race technology they can for their formula one cars. then transfer this technology to their road cars. at some point the manual gearbox will be clearly old technology... btw, i drive my 360CS every day, and i absolutely love the F1. it's a blast on the road as well as the track.
No problem, like I said, to each his own. Every car I have owned I have few complains, nothing is perfect. Did you find your F355 seats to be better on 1500 mile trip driving? It will be good if it does, cuz I plan to drive my F355 alot as well. Maybe we have different definition here, but to me, that IS consistent. Every on-gas downshift rev-matches, every off-gas/on-brakes downshift does not rev-match, that is consistent. If 7 shifts out of 10 on-gas downshifts matches but 3 does not, THAT is inconsistent. Of course I DO wish that it will rev-match all the time, on gas or not. But that's how they decided to prgram it, it is not how you and I would like, but it is consistent in its' own way of design. I think you totally missed point here. I never disputed, in fact I said it myself, that if you are a racer or you track the car, the F1 will sure be faster than 6sp. As you said yourself, if you are on track and your only goal is to win or have the fastest lap time possible, go with F1. But for me on normal street driving, I prefer to operate my own clutch. Not sure I understand the question. The paddles change position when the wheel is turned. But unless you are a dead man or real stupid, you should know where the paddles are no matter how the wheel is turned. I always knew where the paddles are without looking, and I am average intelligent at the most LOL. It's one of those things like reaching the radio control or AC buttom, you should be able to do it without looking. As I said above, I never screwed up yet. Now on the side note, you can also shift using the shifter nob, no confusion at all, up and down, 2 ways to go, never changes. You take your hands off to shift, just like a real stick car. Sounds fancy and all, but should not Ferrari publish the official #'s? I know # for Modena is in EVO and some other Euro magazine when they did F1 vs. SMG II comparasion. I just want to see Ferrari's own stated #'s, I will be very surprised if they actually detuned the shifting on Modena. Hmm, I was not aware we are comparing the speed of those 2 cars here. I was only stating the shifting time for both transmissions. I never disputed the Modena is a faster car, it should be. Actually, interesting that you did not know while owning and tracking 2 M's. When you track the car hard, SMG II actually blips the throttle for you even if you are on brakes, cuz the car "gets the idea" you are racing. From what I know, when you continuously go full throttle and hard braking, again and again as how you would do on a track, the SMG II DOES blip gas when you brake for turns. It does not do on street under normal driving style. Actually I drove the F1 355 hard. Heck, not my car, why would I baby it?? Although, if the computer should adapt to driving style, then if the previous owner also baby the car, then the car was weak, possible, that I do not know. All I know can tell was, when I drove it, lots of 1st-2nd and 2nd-3rd redline shifting, no lifting, shifting did not feel aggressive or fast at all, it did not chirp tires from 2nd to 3rd either. No sure where you get the idea I think I can shift faster than F1. I never ever said that. I know under all situation, track or not, F1 will always be faster than me, you, or Shumi himself. All I said was, while on street driving, where the few tenth of seconds does not matter to me. I much rather do my own clutch work.
Seats are OMP ARS. Not an issue. Unlike the M3 I don't need access to the back seats. Yes, I guess so, in the same vein that they expect drivers to know where the paddles are at all times. Ferrari does away with that whole issue of "moving paddles and stationary shifter stalk" by making the paddles stationary. That way you never need to move your hands away from the steering wheel, which is superior to reaching down and grabbing the shifter. It can be inferred from your statements here- I would say you think you are a "good driver" who can outshift the 355F1 system. I would love to see that in action. The radio buttons and AC buttons do not move. They are static. The shift paddles move. They are not static. I am really beginning to think you have never driven your car hard and do not know the meaning of hard driving. Their system has such poorly designed ergonomics they needed to design a bandaid to compensate for the poor shift concept and you've managed to justify it. Have paddles so that you don't have to move your hands away from the steering wheel, then screw that up and shove a stick changer so that the driver only has that choice if he/she requires a defined placement of device to shift gears. They do that with that damn rotary controller in the 7 series (get the concept of a well defined input controller) but still mess up with the implementation. As far as I'm concerned, BMW has lost the way and the 6 speed M3 and last M Coupe were the last "good" BMWs. Why? Who does this really affect? The few thousand F1 transmission owners who already have what they want no matter what model it is, or some keyboard jockeys who just want to "prove" something? You may want to research this on your own time. Which is why such discussions are so silly. The Modena would kill the E46M3 in so many different categories. But to casually toss "facts" from BMW and run away... have you actually timed the shifts yourself? Have you been able to verify the times claimed? BMW claims there is no design problem with the M3 motor... yet they continue to blow up. How trustworthy are their facts and figures? No. It does not do that consistently, not even under track driving conditions. Prove that it does since mine never did. Who knows why you don't drive cars hard... Redline shifting is not an indication of "hard" driving. One can bring the tach to redline with 50% throttle application in pretty much any car. You should really read up on driving dynamics. "Chirp tires" is not a good assessment of shift speed or quality. I quoted you earlier to show how you think you can shift faster than the F1. If driving fast doesn't matter to you... why bother with a sports car? Just to pose in? Not that there's anything wrong with that... a lot of people think that way.
I said the F1 in 355 is inferior (slower shifting being a big factor) compared to the SMG II in M3, from what I experienced. Only you show me the shifting time of F355 faster than 80ms, we don't need to waste more board resource on this issue. Strange comments. Basicly you are saying, one must fock up the position on their SMG II paddles if they drive hard. If they still know where the paddles are then they must not be driving hard. How would you know that? Do you know everyone SMG II M3 drivers in the world? Or you made such conclusion based on your OWN experience. Remember, if you are not capable doing something, it does not mean the rest of the world aren't capable either. LOL. As I expected. Remeber, I do not need to prove anything to you because I never made any statement. You are the one said "F1 in 355 shifts faster than later model cars",, I find that to be hard to believe so I asked you to back up with real#'s from Ferrari, not "someone" opinion. Of course you are not obligated to, but the claims itself don't mean jack if there is no # to back it up. 1st of all let me say this one more time: We are not here to compare the Modena to M3, so please do not change the subject here. The Modena is a superior car to M3. Ok? No arguments at all, never disputed that. Now on to the subject. I only said from what I read, SMG II shifts in 80 ms while Ferrari F1 shifts at 150 ms. Of course Modena is faster than M3 no matter what since it has 67 more hp and weights 400+ lbs less, but being faster from 0-60, 0-100 or 0-whatever does not mean it shifts faster. No, of course I can not confirm if the #'s true, I just quoted from what I read, which I believe to be rather accurate figures, those things are like other specification, manufacture usually do not lie about. If you firmly believe the #'s are BS, magazine lied to praise SMG, feel free to think so. As I said, I really don't care, I would take a Ferrari over a BMW anyway, not defending BMW here. Driving fast is the only reason for your sports car? Pretty sad. Especially when the sports car here is Ferrari. As I said before, I was not aware there is finish line on the street, driving like on a race track on street is not my cup of tea, it was when I am in 20's but now I am 31, too old for that crap. I bought the F355 because of the Ferrari racing heritage, because of the appearance, the engine sound, being fast is the last thing on my mind. Why didn't you get a Z06 is driving fast is your concern? Are you just posing in a Ferrari?
I originally was looking,for a manual tranny 360, but a friend of mine talked me into trying the F1. I love it. I might have gone with a manual if I had found one I really liked, but the price I got mine for was pretty good with the F1. But I look forward to getting a 328 GTS to drive with the manual.
Yes, that's why the SMGII has had reports of over-reving whereas the F1 has not. Yep, I see it's really superior. Keep digging away... No. I am not saying that. I am saying that the dynamic nature of paddle-on-wheel makes it impossible for a driver to properly acertain where the paddles are as opposed to statically mounted ones that Ferrari uses. Now you are saying you have NEVER had a problem on a SMGII shift, and neither has the rest of the world since you speak for them too. It's getting really thick in here. Do your own research. Call up Ferrari UK. Call up Ferrari NA. Call up Risi. Call up Veloqx. Find out about the single 355 F1 Challenge car. Talk to people. Don't expect people to spoon feed you just because it's the internet. "No # to back it up" is more like what you are talking about. I have stated the source of my information. You on the other hand have none. Do people really buy that sort of crap here? And that's the basis of this whole problem. People like you read crap on the internet or magazines and take it for Gospel. I know the magazines, I have met many of the editors and writers over the years. They are fallible. They hear rumors and gossip, don't do due dilligence when facing deadlines, and include it in their stories. Car magazines are for entertainment... Yep, use it up, get another. It's just a car. If I wanted to go slower I'd get in my Jag. If I need four doors I get in my SUV. If I wanted to go even faster I'd get in my Nissan. If I want to get in an ill handling car I'd get in my S2000. You sound like a collector. You know, the guys that don't actually drive the cars. I don't drive fast on the street. If you recall I wrote (and I quote) I go to the track to go fast... not to noodle around like I would on the street. You seem to suffer from selective reading comprehension. You're younger than me. You're younger than many racecar drivers. It's too bad you can't drive a sports car like it was meant to be driven. Posing in a Ferrari? Z06? Where did that come from? Going fast in a sports car is posing? Going slow in a sports car is not posing? Are you some sort of Bizarro F-Chatter? You're the one who bought the car despite "being fast is the last thing on my mind." Perhaps a nice sedate car would be more appropriate for your needs- maybe a Volvo...
I like the interior looks of 6-speed, and the feel of shifting gate over the interior look of F1. However, when F1 is working fine, it's just much easier to drive on roads. I can hold drink, cell phone (I know, I know), or/& cig while driving w/ F1. I'm new to F1, so I still try to shift w/ my right hand then panic when my right hand can't find the shift ball. Both F1 & 6 speed has pros & cons. I like both of them so far. Having said this, I'll probably buy 6-speed 550 over F1 550 for the next car.
Not sure what's this over-revving you are talking about. Heck anything is possible. An idiot can get confused on the fixed paddle positions on the Ferrari F1 when he forgets what's left and what's right. That's possible too. no? I never had a problem on my SMG shift in 20 months of ownership. As for the rest of world, I never made any comments about them, you again kept putting words in my mouth. From the very beginning I stated the paddle position is to each his own. To be 100% honest I thought it was ridiculous and stupid to debate the paddle position to determine which is a better transmission system, but since you wanted to mention it, I won't stop you. I never ever said which way is better, you are the one insisted that SMG paddle is confusing, only then I said it is not confusing to me. You made a statement, I ask for proof, that's spoon feeding? Ok you win. I stated that I got the numbers from EVO magazine. Do people buy that kinda of crap? I don't know. I would assume more than several Ferrari owners here SHOULD know their car shift at 150ms while SMG shifts at 80ms. I am sure if I am wrong, someone should have pointed out by now. I think you are confusing EVO etc with Motor Trend likes. But again, to each his own. I failed to see how that supported your point(if you do have one) in anyway, seems that you randomly yapping off every now and then. And you drew such conclusion because the following facts: 1) I stated F355 F1 is slower shifting. 2) I stated paddles position on SMG does not confuse me. 3) I stated SMG II shifts at 80ms while F1 shifts at 150ms. 4) I highly doubt F1 in 355 shifts faster than F1 in Modena. 5) I don't drive on the street like I am on a race track. Is that it? One of more of the above facts made me a collector who does not drives the car. OK, you win again. Hello, genius, if you recall, I stated in BOLD letters in the very beginning, that for track use F1 beats 6sp for sure. So what's the beef? And that conclusion is drawn because I prefer manual vs. F1? ok, you win. That came from when you said why drive a sports car if you do not go fast. I found that to be one of the dumbest thing I ever heard about sports cars, especially when we are talking about Ferrari's. I do not know what the % of owners is that they bought the car purely for speed. Please learn how to read. i said being fast is the last on my mind when I bought the 355. That statement is perfectly valid. If anyone buys a F355 to be the king of drag racing, he is stupid and crazy.
Don't want to get in the middle of this argument, but I was just curious about one comment : Isn't that by its nature, inconsistent ? How does the SMG II "decide" if you're on the track ? And does that mean this learned behaviour will not kick in until you're done with a few laps already ? Won't that mean, that until the car "realises" you're tracking, you'll have to contend with non-rev matched downshifts on braking, meaning poor balance through corners for the first few laps ? I'd want a F1 style transmission that does the same thing, everytime, consistently, instead of relying on an iffy computer heuristic at track speeds. Consistent rev matching should be implemented during braking, that's the only way to perfectly simulate a heel-toe. It wouldn't hurt to have this during "normal" street driving as well, so I don't know why BMW implemented it this way.
Yes! It's not that difficult a concept to grasp. SMGII is inconsistent by nature- the paddle placements on the wheel, blipping/no blipping during downshifts, different S/A modes that not only shift differently to each other but also to throttle input (anyone who says they use all 11 modes constantly is flat out lying... I only used three modes after the novelty wore off- A4, S4 and S6 and even then it was not good). BMW did it this way because they can get away with it- because their customers who are happy with the system most likely drive in the same manner... The funny thing about the SMGII throttle blips is- when the system does blip, it's an overly dramatic affair that completely slows the shift down. Compared to the F1 system it's lethargic at best.
That's okay. You can research that on your own time. No. Not possible. They are clearly marked. They are also in plain sight. They are also static. There are only two places the paddles can be, left and right. Unlike SMGII their function cannot switch positions nor can they be found at the top and bottom of the wheel randomly. SMGII style paddle implementation would be better on a rack that provided 1/2 turn lock to lock- 1/4 turn in both direction. Like an open wheel car, or kart. Putting words in your mouth? This is what you wrote- You put those words in your own mouth... Funnily enough, everyone I have shown my old car to has agreed with my assessment on shortcomings of the SMGII system- SCCA National champions, regional winners, street driving enthusiasts, and non-enthusiasts. The only one who has completely disagreed with me is you. I already gave you a list. That's all I need to do. If you want to verify my statement go ahead. There are a lot of sources for you to call up. Since you already doubt my statement, you'll doubt my "proof" and I'm not going down that road. Yes. EVO magazine. They print erors too. The Enzo that appeared there belongs to my friend which in of itself does me no good except for trivia. And? What's your point? No one cares. You can shift faster than F1- that is what you concluded when you purchased the stick 355. I would like to see that. On the contrary. You are confusing truth with the printed word. Just because it's in print doesn't mean it's factual in nature. You are the one that constantly veers off on a tangent. I am trying to answer your point one by one with counterpoints. 1. Under S6 is shifts at .8 seconds. What about under S5, or in the other modes? There are 11 modes. So under 10% of the programming is designed for the "quick" shifts. And you have to press a button several times, then press it again and hold, to get to S6. By design they do not encourage you to use it constantly. 2. You don't drive under conditions that would stress you. You have stated that you don't go to the track. Take it to the track. Find out what I am talking about then come back. 3. See point 1. 4. You can doubt it till the cows come home, but you'd be wrong. 5. That has nothing to do with this debate, yet you constantly bring it up. Yet another example of your tangental thinking. You have said nothing that leads me to conclude otherwise. You use magazines and the internet for your reputable sources of information. The beef is not with that statement. The beef is with your assessment that SMGII is superior to the F1. If you can not read critically that is not my problem. You bought a sports car to drive slow in? You bought a car, whose sole purpose is for rapid transit, and you granny shift it instead of driving it the way it was designed to be driven. What are you afraid of? I would think a high proportion of F-Chatters would be real enthusiasts. You can't be a typical Ferrari owner... at least, I hope not. Think of all the Ferraris languishing there, never being driven. That's funny! Yet another statement to show the lack of experience behind the wheel. You equate driving fast with "king of drag racing." Yet NOWHERE did anyone ever even state anything about "drag racing" or being "king" of that discipline. You are backing yourself into a corner. Keep it up.