CHALLEGE CARS: HOW MUCH?

I've always been a little confused. Are the challenge cars street legal?

 

355, the 1st year only is street legal
360, No

348, not sure

 

348's are, 95 355's are, 360's are not. Those pics don't look like NJ.

 

Yea, 348's cam in street spec, but if you had a full out contender 348chal, it was not really legal, but you might be able to get away with it. The 95 355 challenge can be street legal (converted), the 96-99 cannot be converted too easily (but cna be done with the right amount of money...). Obviously 360chal is, as mentioned before, not street legal, but thats why they have the CS But no slicks on public streets of course haha

348 has great steering input and response, but just does not have the power the 355 does. 348 felt very balanced and nuetral, steering was very very tight, and precise. 355 is almost better in everyway, but basically improved on everything, nothing changes too drastically. I love em both

360ch, in my opinion, needs a decent amount of work to be competitive in most series, but fun for trakc events if you are a good driver...otherwise you'll probably spin it a bunch of times, hopefully not smash it up like every 360ch has already been....

 

I haven't been following the 355 and 360 Challenge prices, but you can get a 348 for as little as $35k, with most in the low $40's.

 

Yea with these cars its a weird thing. Because the price might seem low, but when it comes time for work...parts and service get pretty pricey, mainly with the engine.

Now if you can get parts at cost and do your own work, it would be a great little track/club car

 

JDAVID,

The car in the Ebay add belongs to a friend of mine in the Empire State Region FCA. His car came from Germany and won both the German Challenge Championship and also the Challenge finals at Monza one year.

The car had a complete engine and tranny rebuild.

I sold my 355 Challenge back in January and know the market well.

A 348 C that has been raced will go for 35-40K
A 348 C that hasn't been raced will go in the 50's if in excellent shape

A 355 C that has never been raced or has been very well taken care of will go for 70-75K
A 355 C that has been raced but refreshed (engine and/or tranny) will go for 65-70K
A 355 C that has been raced and has not had the engine or gearbox refreshed (or comes will little or no history) will go for 55K-60K.

360 C's are all over the map, but a good price for a car that hasn't been raced or has less than one season on it is about 110K.

Some 360 C's are being sold for under 100K with one selling recently for 90K

Keep in mind that a engine rebuld on a 355 is about 30K and a tranny will set you back about 5-7K (some have cost 10K).

These are not cheap cars to fix so race history and accuirate records are crucial.

My car had never been raced and I had all service records from day one. Mine sold at the very high end of the market.

Only 95 355 C and a very few 96's can be made street legal with a VIN #. I think only 2 96 models came with VINS #.

If you need more info PM me.

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod (ex-owner of #23 95 F355 C, last one built in North America)
www.flatoutracing.net

 

I agreed with FormulaRacer about the 360CH (having spun it numerous times myself), and was always a little afraid that the tail was going to bite me in the ass. Cracked up the rear at the Glen in June and got it back last week for Pocono.

I don't know what changed as far as suspension geometry before and after the crash, but the rebuild by Classic was superb, and now the car feels like it's on rails. Easily controllable oversteer (as opposed to the old snap spin) and a few more ponies from some light engine mods and a custom exhaust. I now love this car and just a month ago I was ready to swap it for a 355 (but I could not fit into one). It is a good bit faster than any 355 (except Ippoliti's), and as long as you stay on the gas it will be your friend. Not recommended for newbies unless you have plenty of $$ available for body work and a very short learning curve.

New: $185,000
Used but well maintained w/recent rebuild: 110-140k. Depends on year/mileage (get mileage off SD-2. no odometer)
Used and neglected:Under 100k.
MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE THAN A 355 TO MAINTAIN, VERY LITTLE TO DIY. YOU NEED AN SD-2 UNIT FOR VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING.

I think a good 355CH much more user friendly, lower maintenance, cheaper initial price (80k for an excellent non-crashed example with recent rebuild. Down to 50-60k for one that needs work).

Interesting fact from someone who is an expert on 355CH- the 1995 cars were all dealer conversions to Challenge spec. '96 and on they were factory jobs. The 1995 heads are considered the best for some reason, and owners of some later models retrofitted '95 heads for better performance. So you may see some engines with non-matching heads.

 

You have gotten a lot of information here but not all is entirely accurate:

1. No raced Challenge car can be made "streetlegal" again unless you bring it back to DOT/EPA and have them test it and re-certify the car. That said nobody would ever do that neither is it likely that you will ever be stopped and asked for it.

2. 348s and 1995 355Challenge cars were imported to the US as regular street cars and then dealer converted. Those cars therefore have a title, which you can take to your DMV and register the car, get a plate and drive it (theoretically) on the street. Again, this is not legal by DOT standards but possible since nobody will likely ever ask you.

3. As of 1996 the US Government required all cars to conform with OBD2. This required a different ignition system that actually took HP off the engine. Ferrari at that time decided that they will import their Challenge cars now as Race Cars, therefore not getting a certificate of title but only an MSO and therefore all 1996 and later (incl 360s) will be sold with a bill of sale not a title. The 2.7 Motornic they used in 1995 was continuted on the 355Challenge series (more power) and is not legal other than on the track.

4. As of 1996 the Challenge cars were not converted cars anymore but were built in the same line as European Race cars were all along. At Sportiva. The cars are built for track and have a lot of safety features from street cars eliminated. The setup is done by the factory and not the dealer and is a whole lot better than on the dealer converted cars.

It depends on what you want to achieve with this car. If you like to drive it to the movies you need a 1995 or older. Be aware it is still not street legal. All my Challnege cars are sold with that disclaimer and you will sign your name so you will not come back to me one day and say, hey...I though... .
If you are looking for a straight track car, you have to go 1996 or younger. There is a HUGE difference.

The 1995 Challnege car offered on e-bay will not have a title. It was imported as a race car with the race-car exception and is NOT eligible to be titled and plated. If that is what you want to do you need to get a US car with US Vin.
Someone else made the comment that the 1996 cars do not have VINs, that is wrong. They do have VINs. They actually in the 355 series still have US Vins over EURO VINs, but as of the 360CH the cars all came with EURO VINs since it did not matter anyway and I think it had something to do with allocations being taken if they had imported them with US VINs (that just a guess).

All of that said, I have a US 1995 Challenge car that is in excellent shape asking upper $70Ks and I have a EURO 1996 factory built 355Challenge for $ 69,500 asking. The slime green 355Challenge sold last week. We also have a 360Challenge inbound $ 99,000 with fresh engine.

 

Solly, can you find out some more info on this? I'm aware that 360s are prone to snap and spin. As someone who has put in a build order for a CS, I'm very interested. Perhaps you can PM me the phone number of the tech @ Classic?

Thx, DrTax

 

Dale,
unless you start driving the 360s on the edge you will probably not get clsoe to loosing the rear.
The main problem with them is (and it is not really a problem with the car but the drivers) that the undertray produces the downforce on the car, not the wing as the 348 and 355CH have it. If you drive on the edge over a bump your distance between car and road changes and the suction is reduced, thus the car gets light. This causes people to lift of the throttle (natural), which takes the rest of the downforce off the car and now you are losing it.

To drive them correct you have to stay on the gas and try to avoid bumps. easier said than done because your brain tells you that split second that you are nutz and to lift your foot off.

Now this is all for track use and will not really become a factor on the streets where you should not drive faster than 65Mph (yeah right...)

 

Gee Martin, you sound like you're speaking from personal experience. For a guy who always reads and follows label directions, I wonder how this can be?

 

Couple of things:

1) Martin is correct about having to re-certify the car through emmissions. In the case of the car on Ebay, my friend Peter did actually go through this process and get DOT/EPA certificate and street title.

2) Martin, it may have been me that stated in another post that the 96's on didn't have VIN #'s. I was told this by FOW when I looked at buying them but it appears this was incorrect info. Thanks for clarifying this.

3) Different states have different laws so you need to look them up. In some states a roll cage is illegal, in other states not having the stock seat belts installed is illegal (they require that little black square with the red button). In some states you have to prove you have working defogger, which if you don't have the AC system kooked up makes it hard to defog a windshield.

4) In referrence to the 360's Martin is correct. I speak from personal experience having driven three different 360 C's. All the downforce is produced at the bottom of the car with the aid of aero devices/diffusers. Unlike the 355's with their huge wings, the 360 doesn't like mistakes being made that require a reduction in throttle or a complete lift. Where this occurs frequently is when someone realizes that they have either gotten the turn in point wrong BEFORE the apex and have to lift, or after they pass the apex and realize they are running out of track (understeer) and have to lift.

In all cases the air under the car gets interupted and loss of downforce occurs. This is because all the downforce is created by the diffuser which speeds air up at the front of the car and then slows it down at the rear/exit.

As I have pointed out many times, the first 360 C race at Homestead saw 12 cars crashed because of this issue.

However, this is not an issue on a CS street car and it won't be an issue on a 360 C unless you are driving it at the car's limit. At 6 or 7 tenths this isn't as much a problem.

I am highly biased since I owned a 355, but I think it's the best "track car" of the 3. If you are looking for "bang for the buck" than a 348 is the best car. It's cheaper when rebuild time happens and it's nearly as fast as a 355 when driven by the majority of FCA people.

The 360, as Solly pointed out is very complex and not friendly to the do-it-yourselfer" or the "Non-authorized Ferrari shop".

5) If you do buy a 95' 355 Challenge make sure the rear wing is the genuine FNA article. The 95's did not have a rear wing which wasn't introduced until the 96 series. There are a lot of replica wings out there, some as good or better than the FNA wing, but some I have seen look like they came from an Japanese Import house.

The 348's never had rear wings and the 355 wing is too big for a 348 and the mounting points don't match on the rear decklid. Any wing on a 348 is likely a aftermaket part, unless someone went to the trouble to hunt down a LeMans or Competizione wing.

A 348 without a wing isn't a big deal as the 348's had no underbody aero and relied mainly on mechancial grip.

Each car or version became more complex than it previous cousin, and each one is significantly faster than the previous generation, but unless you are out to set lap records a 355 is as fast as a 360 when driven 7 or 8 tenths.

Regards,

Jon

 

Jon knows his stuff

 

I'll never forget after Jon took me out for a session in his 355C:

Kevin: "THAT was 7/10ths????"

Jon: "Well, maybe 8 or 9!"

 

Jon,

You have been missed this season. Are you coming to the Challenge event at Lime Rock this week?

In your opinion, if the seat from a 355 were totally removed and i had a seat "poured" for myself, would I be comfortable in a 355? I tried out Chris Sarkesian's car last week and it "almost" felt comfortable but I still missed the extra 3-4" of leg room that the 360 has. Maybe a poured seat on the floor would give me the room.

Although the 360 is now running astonishingly well in terms of grip and controllability I am now retired and would much prefer to do basic service myself rather than shell out the $$ to a dealer. Can't do this on a 360 without the SD-2.

Hope all is well with you.

 

Kevin,

Sometimes you get caught up in the moment. I usually don't drive too fast with passengers. One, I usually try to dial it back depending on the passenger, and two I would never want to go of track with a passenger in the car.

I told Joe Pearson (FOW) I would take him out and planned on going about 8/10th's but we got into a nice tussel with another fast 355 C so I asked Joe if he was ok with it and low and behold I ran my second fastest lap time ever in the car.

Solly,

I would think head room is the biggest concern but then again Chris is pretty tall like yourself.

I think to some extent you might miss the power (and lack of weight) of the 360 C. I recently drove someone's 348 C and while it was a really nice track car and was very fast, I thought to myself that I wouldn't be interested in one coming from a 355 C. The 348 felt like it was missing 100 hp.

I would venture to guess that Chris seat is about as far back as you can get one in a 355 C.

I would think long and hard before making such a move in terms of driver comfort. Make sure you will be comfortable in the car because if you aren't it can effect your driving.

I would spend a day in one. Maybe ask Chris if you can rent his for an entire day. If after 4 or 5 twenty minute sessions you aren't too sore or uncomfortable then maybe it's doable.

I do miss running with the Challenge crowd but I made the choice last year that I would focus on racing the next few years with the ulitmate goal of racing at the 24 hour race at Daytona in 2 years.

I will still come out to an FCA event here and there but not as many.

Regards,

Jon

 

Little blurb from SAE on the 360.

http://www.motorsportsengineering.sae.org/motorsports/technology/ferrari.htm

 

Hi Everyone,

As you may know, I was the lucky buyer of Jon's F355Ch this past winter. I'm not an expert on the Challenge Car market, but here's what I got for paying "top dollar" at $75K that people keep telling me was a bargain.

1) A Challenge Car that was never raced and only run at Club/DE events.
2) A car that we all knew well from track events that Jon ran at with us.
3) A COMPLETE service history from street car (Late 1994 to early 2001) to Challenge conversion in 2001 to operation as a challenge car since then as further proof that the car was very well maintained.
4) Many extras -- an extra set of Challenge wheels, 4 sets of used slicks with 5 or less heat cycles on them (2 sets mounted on the wheels plus 2 more), a set of PZero rain tires, a Tubi GT exhaust system (headers to muffler -- awesome!!!), extra clutch and brake rotors, and a set of custom ECU chips that takes the red line up to 9K and, in combo. with the Tubi GT system, takes maximum power up over 400hp.
5) Original parts taken out of the car at the time of conversion to a Challenge car except wheels, seats, and tools -- while I don't intend to ever convert the car back or make it street legal, these do add value (and take up space in the basement!).

Before I signed on the dotted line on the day I bought the car I had my mechanic, John Tirrell (an expert, top shelf mechanic who himself is a 355Ch owner and driver), fly down to go through the car with a microscope for several hours. Except for a small oil leak (cam seals, which will be addressed next winter after this season is over), John found no significant issues with the car.

And last, but certainly not least, I worked with a seller who was extremely knowledgeable and up front about the car, great to deal with, and still cares and is interested in the car and how I'm doing with it.

So in summary, I consider myself extremely lucky and fortunate to have been in the right time and place to get the car. As you may have surmised from above, including my mechanic's blessing, I was able to buy the car with EXTREME CONFIDENCE. I didn't even think about offering Jon anything less than his asking price once I realized the opportunity staring me in the face.

And I've been rewarded with a totally awesome -- and surprisingly user-friendly -- car that, so far, I've spent 9 glorious days on the track with at the Glen and Mont Tremblant. I had one small glitch at my first event with a problem with the charging system (after the repair, now the alternator puts out 120 Amps at full electrical load) that cost less than $500 for me to have John fix. Other than that, I've used up one of the sets of slicks, a set of brake pads, and the car is at JT's shop to change fluids for this weekend at Lime Rock. The car has been rock solid and has run absolutely great.

I guess you can say that I concur about comments about knowing the car's history, condition, etc. in this thread!

If any of you are at Lime Rock this weekend, please stop by to say hello... I'll be with the "Team Pilota" gang (BigHead Dennis, John T., et al) in the paddock with Barchetta Red/Yellow Trim #23.

Charlie Vest

 

Challenge,

I think he tells everyone that line of baloney (7/10's) He told me the same thing. My first ride with him he spent half a dozen laps plastered to the back of someone's Porsche GT3 Cup car. After about the 5th lap or so I finally relaxed and thought to myself "I think I'll live to see my next birthday afterall".

Jon is easily approachable and is always willing to give someone a ride. I just recently purschsed an 01 GT3 Cup and let Jon drive it at Summit. He had the car setup in two sessions.

Shame to see the Challenge car gone but fear not as I am hounding him weekly to get a GT3 Cup car.

Jon are you listening to any of this ?

Regards,

Andrew

 

Any pictures of the gt3 cup car? Whos was it?

 

Charlie,

Thanks for your gracious comments about me and the car. I am glad you are still taken with the car. As stated many times you were the "perfect" buyer I was searching for.

It's a breath of fresh air, as they say, when you are dealing with a buyer who clearly knows what to look for and also understands that getting a great deal is more about getting a great car than a great price.

In the case of Challenge cars, buy the best car you can afford to. Spend the money now, or spend it latter many times more.

There is a good reason that 355 Challenge cars and 360 Challenge cars loose value so quickly.....cost to rebuild things. Two of my friends from the Empire State Region (one a poster here on F chat) bought what they thought were great cars but in both cases they had terminal gearbox failures within 4 or 5 track events. One of them had the cost partially covered by FOH but the other one was out nearly 10K.

These cars are not inexpensive if not kept up properly, but then again this can be true of any car. I bought one of three Grand Am Cup Acuras to race this season. The other two were bought by felllow competitors in the series I race.

My car (the Acura race car) has had no problems beyond some loose wires. The other two cars have had major problems, broken hubs, broken wheel studs, gas tanks falling out on both cars, synchros........... I put it down to maintenance. If you take your car to the track, whether it's a full blown race car or your daily driver, every nut and bolt needs to checked after every event.

As my good friend Andy here found out and most others who look for Porsche or Ferrari race cars, it's next to impossible to find race cars with service records. In the case of Ferrari Challenge cars that were raced, records weren't kept in the same way someone keeps records for a 360 street car. Stuff is repaired as fast as possible for the next race and notes if any are more along the lines of setup changes not "how many oil changes, gearbox fluid changes, or other service things".

About 75% of the buyers who contacted me about my car where so focused on price. I kept hearing "well I see all these 355 C's selling in the mid 60's.........." When I pointed out that they came with no records or had been raced mutiple seasons most people didn't care. That's fine but then you have to realize what you might be in for.

This more than anything has impacted the 360 C market. A new car costs $185K but a used one can be had for half.

Other than Solly, who I know keeps his service guys on top of everthing, I don't see many people enjoying their 30 C's as much. I know at least one guy (Solly will remember him in the Orange and Black 360) who couldn't get his car to run right until the 5th track event. He sold his car after one year.

In closing, when looking for a Challenge car, do what Charlie did. Do your homework and don't focus ONLY on price. It's secondary with these cars. If you are completely focused on PRICE and aren't willing to spend an extra 5-10K for a good car then a Challenge car isn't in your budget in the first place.

Andrew: if you will let me sleep in your garage for 6 months I will start considering a Cup car. My wife's reply after seeing my grin after driving your car was "....don't even think about it until I get my new kitchen and a nice black Merc SL....."

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod

 

Jon,

Funny you should mention the kitchen thing! New quartz countertops are being installed at my house today. And yes, that was in the Challenge Car budget (glad Diane didn't ask for the Mercedes too!).

CV