The passing is NOT in the pits... we need better F1 TV coverage!

Not afraid just trying to work with what we have at the moment. It seems that multiple line tracks are only oval tracks and regular tracks with cars that are slow and don't throw rubber all over the place. Somehow if we could see what the real difference between the cars and drivers around the track it would help.

I agree that F1 would be awesome with side by side racing, I don't think anyone is questionning that here. I've been watching F1 for a while now and passing as never been commonplace. But when it does happen it is more exciting than any other form of motorsport. there have been some awesome races in the past where one pass is rememebered, and some awesome races in the past where blocking has won the race. I don't think too much is different today. But the coverage could be a lot better.

Do you guys ever notice how often Ferrari manages to pit and release their drivers on a clear track? Next time pay attention to where and when renault, honda, release their drivers. Often they are caught up for two or three laps passing four or five backmarkers. They can do better.

 

Pete, don't hurt yourself!

Would it be as simple as abolishing fuel stops again? Maybe limiting the number of race tyres, except for punctures?

I thought fuel stops were brought back to make the races exciting again. How about the idea that was thrown out a while back about inverting the starting field based on points and foregoing qualifying altogether?

 

OK let us get rid of the pit stops!!
NO more refueling! NO more changing tires! Let us take F1 back to the day where their were no pit stops!

So that means fuel heavy cars to have constantly decreasing lap times as the fuel levels get lower towards the end. Also the tires would have to last from start to stop. Sounds good... You be the one to tell the drivers about the 50 - 50 chance that their tires will blister and punture in the heat and strees leading to accidents like that of Ralf at Indy!

I don't miss the days of Senna and prost battling. I am seeing Rubens battle Michael. Technology advances and so the dynamics of F1 change. Maybe you should be content inwatching old race DVDs and Videos. I consider this the true F1. Where not only the drivers are in race to perform but the constructors are in a race to design and develop the best car possible under the regulations.

The only thing contant in the world is change! Gone are the days when F1 had no pit stops. Strategy is the new name of the game.

 

Probably not, I do not have the answers. I (as I pointed out with this post: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134280458&postcount=31) came to the realisation that fuel stops DO account for some of the increased costs and the lack of passing.

That is true ... I think mis-guided, and also to increase the team involvement.

Yes but the sports person in me has trouble with playing around with the true concept of a sport ... you end up with the same sort of farse that we have now. Like adding weight to the winning cars ... takes away the advantages the clever teams have worked so hard for.

Pete

 

I think we can agree that Bernie and the boys have a tough time ahead if Ferrari continues to dominate the way they are. If Button was on MS's ass the whole race, or anybody else for that matter then it would be exciting. It would be exciting if barrichello was on MS's ass. I miss Prost v. Hill, or Prost Senna, it didn't matter what team those guys were on or if it was the same team they just wanted to beat the living crap out of each other. It made for a very exciting two hours of racing.

The biggest problem is not the rules. The rules are everchanging. It is the level of competition that I think we all have a problem with. I wish renault, BAR, etc would not wait for next year or settle for being second like it seems they are doing. Those guys even say it aloud....that they are racing for second in everything. Ban Ferrari and the series would be exciting.

 

Interesting comment in the Australian Motorsport magazine regarding the Bahrain support race which was the TGF1 (up to 80's F1 cars I think) series.

Apparently 90% of the current F1 staff were hanging on the pit wall to watch this EXTREMELY exciting race that saw the 3 leaders 3 abreast/wide in to the corner at the end of the front straight and really battling. While this race was only 7 laps long, most of the current F1 crop stayed to watch because the result was never sorted until the last lap dash for the flag ...

Apparently somebody high up has asked this series to follow F1 around to provide something interesting to watch

Gee I wish they would televise it ... maybe during the the REAL F1 race, after all nothing will happen in the real race anyway, so when we return MS will still be leading and RB will still be pretending to try and pass MS (joking guys, just joking) .

Pete's saying it how he read it

 

He passed Alonso by running 1 to 1.5s faster per lap for a dozen laps... but the pass happened when they were displaced by one pit stop... 20s or so apart on the track.

You're not thinking this suggestion through. If you ban pitstops, then everyone starts with an equally heavy car. And everyone qualifies with an equally heavy car. MS will win most every pole... and then will steadily pull away from everybody from the start of the race until he is far enough ahead that he can take it easy and cruise to the finish. BOOORING!!

Worse, that'll generally be true of the whole field. RB will outqualify everybody but MS most races... and will similarly steadily walk away from the field. And so on right down the line. SUPER BOOORING!!!

Even where the qualifying results were "off" and a faster driver ends up behind a slower driver, unless the slower driver makes a big mistake, as long as you have >4G downforce aero on the car, the courses will be single-track... that is, the faster driver will just be stuck unless he bumps the car in front off the track. EXCEPTIONALLY BOOORING!!!!

If it weren't for the pit stops, F1 would be completely dead... a two-hour parade to show off the qualifying results of the prior day. The only question would be which cars blow-up before the race ends.


To fix F1 and return true wheel-to-wheel racing, you MUST remove all the damn aero effects... only then is it possible to find multiple fast lines through the various corners such that a slightly faster car/driver can pass a slightly slower car/driver. Keep the pit stops... they add a lot of extra excitement and team work.

But of course, that's the topic of other threads... not this one... the point of this one is that F1, as it is, could be made much more interesting and exciting to watch by simply presenting it properly.

 

I disagree... if everyone were more equal, then we'd just be incredibly frustrated that nobody can pass due to the fact that if you take anything other than the geometric ideal line then you lose so much downforce and thus speed that any pass attempt is a big lose.

It has been shown that people enjoy a big winner... a dynasty... they may love them or they may hate them... but either way, they want to watch them... Chicago Bulls... Dallas Cowboys... New York Yankees... and now Scuderia Ferrari.

 

Exactly what we have now, but currently worse because drivers will not even attempt to pass thanks to a pit stop coming soon.

Anyway getting back on topic. I do 100% agree that the televising of the races could be better and if they showed on track battles instead of the drivers of the same nationality as the hosting country, it would be heaps more interesting. Lap times would help this yes.

Pete
BTW: I will never agree with you Brian, that MS passed Alonso on the race track. He did not, he used the pitstops to engineer his way past. That is not the same as a wheel to wheel battle which I consider is a on track pass. ... but in the end the fact that we think differently will not change the fate of the earth

 

F1 is not circuit racing. F1 is road course racing. NASCAR is circuit racing. IRL is circuit racing. And even those have pit stops and pit strategy.

When you're pushing the edge of the friction circle, there is ONE racing line. If you're not on that line, you're slower. If the guy in front has the racing line, you're going to have trouble passing. When lack of aerodynamics or engine limitations or other factors keep you off the sharp edge of the limits, then you have multiple lines through the conrers. Why is it surprising that F1 is at the limits of performance? That's what it's there for.

F1 isn't a street merge, where people are playing "chicken" with each other. Even karting isn't about banging wheels, when you're at the limits of those little tires. WRC runs one car at a time, because when you're pushing that hard on gravel (or snow or mud or ...), there is only one fast line through the stage, and whoever makes the fewest mistakes wins. And the time that drivers really want to beat is their own -- as long as you beat your previous time, you're improving.

WRC can be exciting to watch, but you have to keep track of the numbers. NASCAR (if you're into that kind of thing) is still just as exciting to watch, even when you can't add up the number of beers you've consumed.

F1 falls somewhere in between. It has on-track passes, but it also has strategy. A friend once told me that if you find chess boring, it's because you don't understand the game.

Anything longer than a straight line quarter mile dash has strategy.

You're beginning to sound like the NBC execs that hated the original Star Trek because it was "too cerebral".

That may be why "the majority" of race fans in the 'States follow NASCAR, rather than F1. It's not as "cerebral".

No, I don't miss the Prost v. Senna battles, because (as I recall them) it was mostly a question of whether Senna would crash into Prost to keep from getting passed.

Over here, we call that a "Demolition Derby" -- another sport for the Rolling Rock six-pack crowd.

Maybe you are following the wrong sport, if you want to see cars banging fenders to get their nose out front on the track. After all, F1 doesn't have fenders.

 

PSK is probably the last person who would watch NASCAR race, so I'm not sure you guys are really communicating.

Anyway, I think strategy is an important part of F1. Always has, always will.

The problem is more, that we want real racing with real passes than strategized moves by picking the best pitstop window etc.

Oddly enough Bernie reintroduced pitstops to make the racing more interesting. There was no real technical reason for them other than to add to the show. By now of course the cars have adapted to that and need the stops as the tanks are too small to sustain an entire race.

Personally I like the refueling stops as part of the show. There is always the odd chance, that somebody gets it wrong etc. Plus it gives the team a chance to act as a team. The part that bothers me is, that we as the spectators never know where we're at: Is driver X in front and doing so fast laps because he is on a light fuel load or because he is simply faster?

I'm always happier when the last pit stop is done for and we can return to real racing. Then it looks like what Pete describes in the Senna vs Prost battles (which were great and not just for the crash factor).

So should the number of REFUELING pitstops be limited and/or be the same for everybody? That would work, but might be a bit too restrictive. What I think is really needed are Brian's ideas about more and better information and Steve Matchett's request that the teams actually have to tell you the amount of fuel on board BEFORE the race. Combine that data with some cool computer program and we would have a much better picture.

 

As Brian has been pointing out, it's not all in the pits.

What makes Michael able to "pass in the pits" is what he does on-track before the pit stops: Pushing his lap times down to qualifying times, lap after lap after lap, without getting sloppy and spinning out.

As in rallye: he who makes the fewest mistakes wins. Or, to keep PSK happy: he who can push closest to the limits without going over wins. (Michael does push past the limits -- in practice. But when was the last time we saw Michael spin during a race ... without being "helped" by another car?)

Michael excels at riding the limits. If Rubens was better at it, he'd have beaten Michael at Indy.

This gets back to the information on the broadcast. At Magny Cours, we got to hear Michael's lap times as he pushed way faster than did the cars carrying more fuel. But we often don't know what kind of lap times the drivers are laying down ... which was where my comment about adding the web feed came in (although I'm not sure even F1-live carries lap-by-lap times).

Coming from a rallye background, I don't have any trouble thinking of the pit strategy as "real racing". It's still about getting around the circuit N times in minimum time. If you do well, you do well, whether you lead from pole or pass ten cars enroute.

But I was never a Senna fan. I guess because Senna was a more confrontational, in-your-face driver. I don't recall Senna being able to lay down fast, at the limit laps, without being in a fight with a nearby driver. Put him out front by himself, and he was prone to "brain fade". Cheever had a similar issue: put an open track in front of him, and he'd run his engine to death trying to close the gap. Michael can calmly lay down the times he needs -- not slower, not faster -- and get the car to the end first.

Agree.

I'll also comment that when TV does show a pass, they show the wrong part: the cars passing. The real action is the corner before the pass. For example, we saw Rubens blow by Trulli, but we didn't see the corner where Trulli "left the door wide open". If Jarno blew the exit of the turn, then the pass was a "given", even before it happened.

When Michael got by JPM in Melbourne in 2002, JPM blocking MS at the end of the straight was messing up his turn, giving him a slow exit. On replay, I could actually see the opening, a lap before the pass happened. (Okay, I had to see it three times. Michael saw it once, and jumped on it the next lap.)

Again, it's the consistent driver who doesn't make mistakes that wins. (I think it was that same AusGP where Michael hounded Trulli until Jarno messed up and crashed out.)

 

DGS, I agree with your statements except for Senna not being able to run flat out by himself. But I leave that to the Senna fans on here to rebuke. I'm sure they will...


You have a good point about the setup to a pass happening the turn before. Kinda hard on the camera/director guys to show that unless it is a replay. But you are right of course.

 

I agree that there are a lot of things happening on track that we are not seeing. But it would be exciting if the top teams were pushing each other nose to tail and trying to create that mistake. Even in the good ol' days that is what was happening, pressure in the mirors.

It was exciting to watch Rubens all over the back of trulli. Trulli makes the mistake and voila instant excitement, best of all we got to see it because it was at the front and not a minardi fighting for tenth. I wouldn't mind seeing those battles as well.

 

Brian,
Go to www.formula1.com[url] And hit Live Timing. It gives a lot of real-time information. Including sector times. During the race, I usually have my laptop in front of me and the TV on at the same time. Works for me.

 

There you go! Here is a man with a solution. Instead of whinning and changing the entire sport he has a simple solution. Hats off to you!

Its a good thing that some people are part of the solution instead of being part of the problem.

 

www.formula1.com

no code required. Just type the address as you would when accessing it through your browser.

 

That seems easy enough. Thanks.

 

You're missing the slash in the second tag. It takes one "open" and one "close", rather than two "opens": www.formula1.com

 

New Zealanders and Australians call racing on a closed tarred track circuit racing. We call racing on ovals ... wait for it, yep you guessed it: Oval racing.

Thus all the racing I have competed in was considered by me to be circuit racing.

The term road course racing is not one that is used down here. We do not race on public roads ... or though I have in a special event where they closed of some streets. I do not think that race still happens any more ... due to spectator safety issues.

Thus my view of circuit racing (or road course racing) is ON track racing and passing. Yes some of our races down here have pit stops and yes you guessed it what happens is the drivers wait for pitstops to gain a little advantage because it is EASIER than passing on the race track.

Each to their own, but I would prefer that F1 drivers were the peak circuit racers in the world and thus the best at on the track passing moves, etc. not just lapping fast.

Pete
ps: I have never, ever watched a NASCAR race from start to finish ... it is NOT racing IMO. Although compared to recent F1 races I dare to say there is at least drivers in NASCAR that are prepared to challenge a car in front ... instead of waiting for the next pitstop

EDIT:

Yes you are correct about the single line on most corners or especially fast corners, but most tracks have things called hairpins. I am a big fan of hairpins if they are positioned at the end of a long straight like the Adelaide track in Australia.

Why am I a big fan of hairpins?

Because they enable passing and neuter the one line issue. While there naturally is a single fastest line, if you stuff your car up the inside of the other car and brake hard you can compromise the other cars exit and thus maintain an advantage and execute a pass. Yes the car in front can hold the tight line thus not enabling you to get up the inside but you can try braking wide and early and try to do what is called down here a scissor move, and pull on the inside with more speed exiting the hairpin.

Fast corners kill passing, slow corners like hairpins enable passing with aerodynamics issues or not (remember wings, etc. do not work very much at low speeds). The only issue is the dirty track. Again on a slow corner not as huge an issue, but still an issue but again if you can get up the inside you can block the other car ... Interestingly this was why the grooved tyres came about, to enable better running on a dirty track. This has proved IMO to be wrong ... and may even suffer worse?

The funny thing about all you one line commenters, is we have all watched MS have some sort of drama and then carve his way up the field to a competitive position (which was exciting for me to watch ... obviously not for all of you). Thus yes modern aerodynamics makes on track passing hard BUT not impossible.

I would like us all to remember that racing on the track should still be the main goal of circuit racing (road racing). We have many different types of racing events that separate the competitors so they do not have to share the same track at the same time. There are things called sprints, hill climbs, rallies, many things.

IMO circuit racing is the ultimate form of motor sport because it puts all the skills you need from all the above (maybe not off road rallying ) and then on top of that puts all the cars together on the same track. Thus you have new skills required, like starting with a full grid, like driving such that the guy cannot pass you, like pressurising the car in front until you find a weakness and then using that weakness to pass that car. It just has so many exciting features and I currently feel that F1 is a little weak in this area.

 

"You feel F1 is a little week".... "YOU FEEL".... you want to change the entire sport ... get rid of the pit stops, get rid of the fast turns, get rid of the aerodynamic features on cars just because "YOU FEEL"!!!!

Wow! You know what is funny? You may consider this another "one line" comment. But guess what is going to happen when all your changes are made. Michael schumacher and Ferrari are still going to dominate and win every race. You will still "feel" that F1 is not competitive enough because Michael is simply too fast for any one and Ferrari are simply the best.

 

Imperial83,

I am not trying to stop MS winning ... <heavy sigh as I have said this before>. But what I would like to see is that when on the rare ocassion MS is not on pole, he has to race the others on track to get to the front. That will be so exciting to watch ... instead of just lapping faster while the other driver pits.

I am fully aware the the other teams need to raise their games, but even if they do all the drivers wait until pitstops to ensure they are not racing the other driver on the track ... except JPM who has not worked this out yet

Pete

 

The clearest example of that was the canadian GP with MS 6th in quali. This is the only race I missed. But seeing the lap charts it looks like all the passing was done over pit stops? ??

Perhaps we should start a different thread for this as this originally started about the tv coverage. For which I've weighed in on already.