The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Is it a full moon????????

 

That's funny!

 

Here you go Speedy.
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LOL!

The cross eyed Prancing Pony!

 

Just let the record show that I'm the legitimate owner of illegitimate VIN #0901..........

I'll rest a happy man, now.

 

No no no no no, you can't own 0901 as we all know 0901 was completley destroyed by Charles Brocket for the insurance money several years ago.

your chasis is merely a recreation claiming to be 0901, it was actually built by class 6g for their exam project "how to build a long lost and forgoten Ferrari from old cat food tins"

interestingly the bodywork for 0901 was re-used for the new Mclaren road car prototype (see pic below)

 

I KNEW that scoundrel Brockett was up to no good!

Post HIS phone number on the Internet and we'll call all night long trying to order a Pepperoni Pizza to go! That will teach him!

 

OK you guys!

Lots of fun had here today, but I want to personally apologize to Jim and Old Guy for trashing this thread like this.....

My only excuse for my personal behavior is the dismay I feel at the constant sniping at Jims efforts to share his hard work and the results with us. I think all the folks here today feel the same way...

Maybe we can get a moderator from the Zupra Cafe to clean this mess up.

Again, my apologies, as I feel that all the carping has really detracted from a noble effort on his part to share Jim's excitement with those of us who truly do appreciate the project.

Good night!

 

Can someone post the COO of 0846 and the purchase invoice WITH '0846'....................thinks can be so easy and the 'problem' is solved.
Ask the special department at Ferrari where the car is! Maybe they tell you the car is scrapped....
If a car is shown anywhere in the world, which says: this is 0846 than the owner can show a COO and offical ferrari papers. There is (too) much said about '0846'

 

Tom you'll have to read everything ever said on this site since time began, and you will still not know all you wish to know.

If it was that easy, there would be no arguement, no book, no movie........

The envronment these cars operated in during the time, race modifications, time pressure to repair damages, new component testing and introduction, these cars more resembled three Lego sets on your kids floor.......

Or David Pipers floor, if you will........

It will be a real challenge for the concerned parties to assert that the identification of the components have been reassembled to match the original configuration.....In addition, current safety and competetion requirements may require certain variances from the way they raced in the sixties.

As Denny Hulme was quoted, "200MPH is non negotiable.", and most of these cars that survive, if still in use have been upgraded regarding the safety systems used.

Jim has stated on several internet sites the replacement of his original Lola Roll Bar, which was fabricated with thin wall exhaust tubing, has been replaced with something more substantial!

I for one support this line of thinking.

 

tomgt,

There is a very interesting editiorial in this (last?) months Cavallino, in which John Barnes discusses the difficulty involved with a simple request such as yours.

The Factory has only lately become concerned with the documentation on these older cars, and VERY FEW Factory employees of the fifties, sixties, or seventies are left that are able to accomplish this.

Racing records for any privateer cars were not maintained, and have to be reassembled from period media reports.

Factory modifications carried out even on the factory team vehicles will not be reflected on the original build sheets and instead may be buried or lost as a Work Order if documented at all.

So you see there is no way for an owner of a car to verify that the existing form as compared to the build sheet is valid.

Leaving behind the subject car of the thread here, I think instead of the Makr Donohue Sunoco 512, which after Penske and Donohue obtained it, was totally reworked with new tub, body panels, engine by Traco, etc., then raced far longer than the Ferrari Factory supported the car........

Would you say this car is "original"? Well in appearance, yes.
Are all the components as left the Factory? Well. no....Is it as raced and made famous by the heros of the day?

It certainly is.

 

"There is (too) much said about 0846." tomgt


Amen to that brother! I'm anxiously awaiting the outcome of this story, but I'm trying to do it QUIETLY.........................

It is only when you shut ones mouth, that other sounds can be heard.


*crickets chirping*

*V12 wail, heard from a great distance, tone rising and falling with the progression thru the gears.................*

 

In army time, this just means 08:46 AM, right...?

Sorry, Rob, i can't help but bust your chops...

 

1142 here NNO ... what Ferrari is that?

Pete

 

Looks like everyone is afraid to start this topic back up again.

I was just excited to see the car.

 

i missed all the other threads. I know most of the story but what is the modena junkyard theory?

 

Why bother? If you express the wrong opinion you get banned from the site...

 

Express opinions all you want! Offer new evidence! Engage in spirited dialog! Channel in to the ghosts of the Sixties! Agree! Disagree!

But do it politely, please. That's all anyone asks. Make this a fun topic, not a p!ssing contest. (NOT directed at you, Tillman).

 

I made a brief post in the other Monterey Thread.

To paraphrase here.....no one tore his sign off the windshield!

Forza this month recounted a tale of an owners barn burning to the ground destroying, IIRC, an early TR....TWO vehicles currently carry that VIN.....

I say ..first come first served....Mr. G has registered at Ferrari as the current owner, at the Owner's Site.......

Unless it's disputed...that's validation...Here's your number plate! LOL!

I checked the VIN plate on a 250LM up close in Phoenix, it's a pretty simple thing...and the tales are there of the factory switching them amongst themselves....

Who cares? I say let Jim enjoy using the car, which is a lot more than some better documented Ferraris enjoy...

I'm glad he is gathering concensus from the few people left alive today who can validate his beliefs....the truth is out there...somewhere..

 

I guess we'll have to wait for a magazine writer with some B@LLS to weigh in.....LOL!

"Hello, Directory Assistance? Yea....get me Texas Driver Magazine....I KNOW he's with Chris Bangle right now....I don't care..... put me through, this is Speedy......."

 

Well, having reviewed the detailed photos and information James put together in the booklet he was kind enough to send me, the evidence is pretty dang convincing. I have not even seen the damage evidence that Wayne got to see in person. If indeed the chassis shows signs of damage repair that match the known damage that 0846 received back in the day.... thats pretty tough to refute.

Its very clear that the Piper story that this chassis was built to P4 blueprints at the same time and by the same people as the other two chassis he had built has huge holes in it. James chassis is clearly a NOT as per P4 blueprints and it does not match 0900. Its also pretty clear that it started life as a P3 and was modified to P4 specs.... just as history tells us happened to 0846. I look forward to the discussed website going up that will show all of this evidence in detail to everyone, it makes for a VERY convincing case.

The Lemans regulatory stamps and such on the engine and trans prove that those parts were THERE in '66 and '67. Whether they were there in this car.... no way to ever know but still its pretty neat stuff to see.

I also agree with Speedy. There are certainly other historically significant Ferraris out there that lay accepted and legitimate claims to VIN numbers and chassis ID's that offer no better "proof" or provenance than James has with his car. As James himself has said... if or when his car is accepted as 0846, it will still not be a "no stories" car. It will have a story. It will not have a perfectly clear history and known provenance. So what. Its still more 0846 than anything else out there, its stunning, his restoration is amazing and its simply one of the most beautiful and incredible Ferrari cars to ever turn a wheel.

So as far as I am concerned.... its 0846. Not that my opinion counts for anything!


Terry

 

Thanks, Terry!

Not everyone around here agrees with Speedy.........LOL!

But those "that know" know..........

 

Jim also kindly sent me the booklet he's created and I was priviledged to see the car a few months ago during it's rebuild and with it, all of the welds, tubes, stamps, mount positions etc the facts are compelling

With more weighty backing from Wayne and his comment that "a very qualified expert also examined the chassis of Jim's car while in Monterey and immediately recognized it as chassis #0846" I'm a believer but as with Terry, my opinion doesn't count for much!

Perhaps I should drop round to Mr Piper and ask him, he is only about 20 mins drive from me

 

Not sure I would, ......he only had permission for ONE frame, from Enzo....that's occaisionally forgotten in the discussion.

ONE...THREE ...whatever... the clincher is the fact that this car couldn't be built from the prints provided, so...?????????????????????

Not sure I'd interrupt his tea over it............

 

Speedy made a good point about first come first serve. Jim made his arguments and we heard the other side as well. What I believe is irrelevant, but let's just say I'm on Jim's side.

My real question is what Wayne just asked: How much or what parts define an original car as an original? If I keep one bar with the s/n from a wrecked Ferrari and put it into a replica/reproduction/donor vehicle do I have then the right to call that the previous car? What if I had two bars or a front axle? Where do you draw the line?

I have no idea how many parts of Jim's car were reconstructed, but from his booklet it sounds there were a lot more original parts than just a bar. But that's not the point. What does define a particular car?

PS: I'm just glad the ban on this topic has been lifted.

PS2: A friend of mine once worked on the reconstruction of one of Hitler's parade vehicles. There wasn't barely anything left but a couple of long bars and a s/n. They rebuilt the car back and claimed it as the original. Ok? Misleading?