British Grand Prix 2004 (Spoiler)

i entirely disagree -- MS was given key authority as part of his deal, and was central to building this team and had/has a major say in key decisions . much as i dislike the guy, he is not only a great driver, he's a great judge of talent and a good corporate strategist. my hat's off to him and i really dislike him.

as to whining about the F streak -- werent you guys around when mclaren did the same thing????? -- and the common denominator: Marlboro, who made a damn prescient decision going to F.

 

McLaren did not do the same thing. McLaren allowed Senna and Prost to race each other and it was some of the best racing F1 has ever seen. In fact the Senna versus Prost battle is probably responsible for F1's huge growth and popularity ... not Bernie.

Nothing wrong with same car winning all the time, but same driver winning without any competition is very boring.

Currently MS is the only WC on the grid ... he has no competition!

If Ferrari put Kimi in RB's car F1 would become exciting again ... but MS refuses to have anybody with talent in the same team (remember he watched the Prost versus Senna battle and learnt). Prost had the balls or arogance to accept the rising star of Senna in the same team, for that I hold Prost very highly. The fact that MS can beat the current crop of amature drivers does not make me think of MS highly at all ... I rate him though because I remember the early days.

Now if MS had the balls to replace RB with a real competitive driver and not a permanent number 2, then many other peoples respect for MS would scream up.

Remember he is the only WC in the grid. Remember how hard it is to get your first, thus not only are they battling MS, they are battling themselves as it is a huge mental battle to get the first WC. Took Mansell years to beat himself for example.

Pete

 

Funniern****!

Does that mean the FW-26 qualifies as the ugliest Ferrari ever?!?!?

 

If you have to be creative to drive the car around the track, get out and walk. You must be consistent every lap to make the podium. If you struggle so much that you have to settle the car after or during turns, then you aren't as good as you could be. Why do people think racing is passing? Passing may seem exciting to some but it is only one part of racing. Pit stops, strategy, drivers with more talent, cars with more downforce, less fuel, more hp, better tires, etc.... These all factor into the equasion that is racing. If you think passing is the only thing that matters, then Nextel is for you. There are lots of passes on the big ovals. But somthing tells me you will complain no matter what you see. You don't have to watch.

 

Good post and I 100% but passing another car is very exciting, especially when you do it. It takes many laps of working out their weaknesses, then you have to execute the move, then you have to hold them out and pull a gap ... incredibly challenging.

Thus yes racing is NOT just passing, but it really adds a lot to the challenge ... hence because they have found an easier way to get pass (ie. using pitstops) they don't because it is difficult.

Pete's like the full game not just 75% of it

 

While the FW-26 will not win a beauty contest it does qualify as a ground breaking design. The second i saw it i could see what Ms. Terzi was attempting to perform. If Ferrari were to tackle the same Aero concept it would not suprise me that it was quick out of the box.

To bad for williams that they are falling apart from the insides and it will take a couple of years for them to get back on track.

 

I don't really care for passing on track. I would rather it happen in pit lane. There is less chance of collisions and blocking. Both are the most dangerous things that happen in F1. If you think that's the best part of F1, it's ok. One day you may know how great just driving fast is.

 

Point is, they don't. If they did, Kimi would have been just in front of MS after the pits. That's why Ross is the genius.

Anyways, points well taken. I must have watched too much MotoGP to find any interest in F1. And what aggravates me is to hear all day "Oh, MS is so good". Anyways. Ranting mode is over. Ferrari is just so cool. MS is God. Forget everything I said and have a drink.

PS ... 62 250 GTO ... "something tells you'll whine no matter what"? How the *uck would you know? I posted my thoughts about this F1 race and you gladly judge me like I'm your average moron. Like I didn't know that myself. Passing is the direct confrontation between 2 drivers. It's the most noble part of motor racing. There is nothing else involve than you and your opponent. Looks like you like the no balls involved motor racing.

 

What the fnck was that reply??

Less chance of a collision ... and you do not like passing ... are you a man or a mouse!

Anyway each to their own.

As for the last comment, grow up man. I've club raced from 18 years old to I was 25, and that was over 10 years ago. I won a circuit racing championship. Yep no big deal, nothing professional or anything, just very amature club stuff, but 100% real racing and heaps of perfectly safe passing at 150 mph. I've had a few real big accidents too ... part of the sport and hurt my wallet real hard.

Again I really can not understand why somebody watching via a TV is worried about collisions and blocking ... all part of the sport. Last time I looked MS and the others were men and knew what they were doing, and if they did not like the 'slight' risk of passing ... then they would not be racing.

I can also not understand anybody that calls themself a motor racing fan not wanting to see passing on the track. You are watching (IMO) the wrong sport, should be a rally fan or hill climb fan where they race the clock.

Pete

 

Exactly ... finally somebody who knows real racing when he sees it.

Pete

 

Good post.

As for Pete: I'm sorry, I don't even understand what you are trying to say in your posts. For example: "Thus concrats MS for another hollow victory. How that guy does not fall asleep behind the wheel of his Ferrari F1 car I do not know ... as a normal, intelligent person would be bored by now. Even Stirling Moss and most other drivers say you eventually wake up to find going round in circles boring and pointless ... I guess one has to wonder at the IQ of MS if he still find beating the current no talent drivers worth getting excited about."
Where to begin? There's two issues here: 1. Does Ferrari deserve credit / praise / to be proud of themselves for their winning? 2. Is F1 now boring and not worth watching.

You don't really address either of these in isolation, and I find it hard to wade through your blanket complaints to discover exactly what you are trying to say. Issue # 1. It's a hollow victory because he's won so many times before? He should be falling asleep because he's better than everyone else? Such a comment suggests that MS doesn't even have to try, that he doesn't have to precisely think through every corner. Your underlying assumption, of course, is not that MS is racing well but that everyone else is racing badly. You simply aren't giving credit where credit is due. He's not just pootling around a parking lot; he's faster on the track for a reason. It's nobody's fault that he is dominant. So instead of trying to look for people to blame, why don't you instead look at it the other way and COMMEND the talented rather than condemn the talent-less.

Issue # 2. You're bored with F1? Well, I'm bored with your posts. I mean no offense, but I'm so incredibly sick of fans in all different sports who jump on winners. Of course a close race is more exciting; of course a baseball game that is tied in extra innings is more exciting than a blow out; of course soccer sudden death is more exciting. But to me sports can have two levels of interest. The first is when teams or individuals are going head to head in a grueling, close battle. The second is when a completely dominant individual or team is doing the sport to perfection. These both give different viewing pleasures to me, and I like them both. I loved watching Tiger Woods when he was blowing everyone away. I would love watching a cricket player hit a double century. You obviously only seem to extract pleasure from the first kind of athletic competition. That's fine. But just so you know, we're not overjoyed to read about what stuff DOESN'T excite you.

The problem, I think, is that you are confusing these two issues and looking at them hand in hand. You are entitled to any opinion you please about how excited you are by F1. And, indeed, you are even entitled to vocalize this displeasure; though, as I have already indicated, I have no idea why you would continually do so. If it bores you so much, why would you want to write about it? And, moreover, why do you think that we want to read about your boredom? Most of all, just because you are bored with dominance does not validate the ridiculous comment, "Another hollow victory for Ferrari." I've never heard anything so silly. A win in any sport doesn't deserve less praise just because it is by a wide margin. As for your boredom, I hope that you soon get bored with whining on F-Chat. Then maybe you'll stop posting the same old boring complaints just like you have stopped watching the races.

 

Yes, but there is a but.

The but relates more to MS than Ferrari.

1. MS has always chosen his team mate to be somebody impotent, somebody he can beat easily. Yes he is the best driver anyway, but MS or Ferrari allowing a really fast driver like Kimi in the number 2 spot would surely make MS's job more interesting. Beating RB must be as challenging as starting my Toyota in the morning ... just turn the key, especially with the team ensuring RB gets a raw deal relating to tactics if necessary.
2. MS is the only WC on the grid. The rest are still wanabies. Not MS's fault, but again most people thrive on a challenge ... there is very little challenge for MS currently, from where I sit.

Because MS will win, barring car failure. Because Ross Brawn will ensure MS never has to pass another car by using boring pitstop related passing.

Yes, normal people get bored with winning when there is no challenge.

IMO MS is not trying as hard as he used to back in the 90's, because he now does not have to. While that is perfectly understandable, I miss seeing MS work the car hard. He was the master, and now does not need to be. Is this his fault?, no I guess not, the other teams need a kick up the arse.

Yes MS is very, very talented, I'm just sad we do not get to see it quite so visibily like we used to when he made a cr@p car perform miracles.

Fair enough

From MS's point of view who is he competing against ... really just RB because most of the cars (until the McLaren got it right at Silverstone) were below par. MS could beat RB with a trailor attached to the rear of his F1 ... lets really be honest, MS is in a completely different league than RB, thus how can MS feel any challenge?

Fair enough again. I really only keep posting because I keep reading that some members of this site do NOT like real passing ... and thus real motor racing ... and I cannot believe it!!!!!, I'm stunned!!!. They actually prefer to watch this procession, safe in the knowledge that their beloved Ferrari team will win again. Bit whimpy in my opinion, I like seeing my team rise to the challenge ... unfortunately no other team is also rising

I like watching challenges in any sport. I see very little in F1 currently for Ferrari ... and I do admire Ferrari for being so pollished, very impressive.

Pete's opinion

 

I'm glad you weren't too mad
I wasn't trying to be rude. I just think it's pretty cool that he is doing so well. And I think it's mainly due to his talent rather than other drivers' lack of talent. That said, of course I would also find it really exciting if there were some other great teams and drivers out there, with lots of daring passing taking place.

Best,
Zach

 

Zach,

I tell you what for yours and others sake: I'll shut up and promise just to discuss rules and F1 future.

I do admire MS's ability.

Pete

 

Following that line of thought, then:
Is there anyone in any other racing series who you could see bursting onto the F1 scene and really doing well? I'm sure there's lots of fresh talent out there. Kimi also seems to have the potential for greatness. What are your predictions about the future?

 

Now that is an interesting thought. I was thinking as I drove to work about how to watch F3 and F3000 ... currently not televised on normal TV in Australia. Thus I would probably have to get FoxTel ...

Thus I'm not up to speed on the talent coming through.

What I would like to see though is a few seats emptied for 'more' talent, especially:
Massa - He has been given a great chance, does not have it, lets give somebody a go.
Coulthard - He's going anyway, I believe.
De Matta - Car is not the best but he has never been exciting.

I could say the same for a few more, but I'm trying to be positive and not to start a flame war

I must say I would love to see Rossi in a F1 car. Not because I think he would be just fast, but because he has a great racing brain on his shoulders. The way he out smarted Gibernau a couple of races ago was sheer brilliance ... he is the master!

Pete

 

I enjoy passing but I can live without a pass every lap. I watch F1 as a whole. And don't cry "Boring" whenever my team doesn't win or when the best car leads from start to finish. I enjoy seeing the cars go as fast as they can. Period. I don't know what you raced, but I'm sure we have different ideas and thoughts about what pushing a car to it's limits is. Over and over, new roads or the same roads, making the most out of every turn, always going faster, is what I like. Never making mistakes and always going for it. If that means Time trials while other cars are on the track, ok, I'll take it.

 

Just your opinion. I think MS has the #2 driver... I think RB is consistently faster than Kimi. And Kimi wasn't really too interesting when they got RB. Montoya might add interest as he'd have punted MS a couple times... but that would just have me (and MS) royally P'O'd. All speculation, of course.

So, when they picked RB as MS's teammate, who was more potent that they could have picked??? No, I don't think they could have really gotten Mika... and he was already showing signs of decline. Other than Mika, who? JV? RB was about as fast a teammate as was available, IMO.

Actually, it is MS's fault!! Retire MS after the 2000 season, and you'd probably have three WC's: RB, KR, and JPM. Then bring MS back this season (a Michael Jordan return)... he'd be dicing it out with three world champions this year... one in the same car. AND he'd be stomping them.

Thus, the question: Is the current situation because the whole F1 field got really weak allowing the only good driver to dominate? Or has MS just become that good, such that in any era he'd be dominating?

Brawn can do this ONLY because MS in an empty car can lay down laps that are 2-3s a lap faster than anybody else in a heavy car. It is MS ability to do that enables that strategy. Soooo, given you are capable of doing that, it would be stupid NOT to mix up your pit stops to get yourself out in the open... and thereby avoid the highly unreliable head-to-head pass between two cars of similar speed and HP, given today's aerodynamics.

MS may be the only driver in history that can pull that off with the consistency that he does. RB can pull it off sometimes... just barely... because he can pull 1-2s a lap faster that most anybody... but sometimes that's not enough given the "open window" that can be created.

Obviously, you are assuming the field has declined. Why? The times certainly do NOT support that. The group of drivers today are laying down times that drivers in the past have never seen. Obviously, hardware and tires have improved... but still, the drivers have to keep up.

I assert: The field has been improving... but MS has been improving faster. I would argue that MS's level of dominance exists because he's trying harder than anybody else. I will even assert that if you drop (a younger) Prost into RB's seat, nothing would be different except it would be Prost's name instead of Barrichello's.

 

Of course it would be more exciting to see MS divebombing people to win the race at the last second. The thing is he doesn't need to. What you are saying is nice to think about, but a bit idealistic. Seriously, could you expect MS and Ferrari to go, hmm, this race is getting a bit boring, lets let the other guy get a huge lead and not use the advantage that I have to win.

This is a racing series. You say you want it to be more so, but your suggestions make it less so. You criticize MS for spinning intnetinoally for whatever reason, but would doing what you say be any different? It would be worse. It would make it more of a "game" for Ferrari and MS to screw around with and play with the competition! That is a bit self-defeating for your point of view if you ask me.

And further, the partner thing. How smart is it for Michael to say, hmm, lets get the best driver possible in this seat next to me so he can also have the best car and challenge me to win? Sure MS has some say in who gets the seat next to him, but it also is not entirely in his hands. RB is no slouch furthermore, to many he is the 2nd best in the field behind MS! Your comment really doesn't make that much sense to me.

 

Fair enough again. I really only keep posting because I keep reading that some members of this site do NOT like real passing ... and thus real motor racing ... and I cannot believe it!!!!!, I'm stunned!!!. They actually prefer to watch this procession, safe in the knowledge that their beloved Ferrari team will win again. Bit whimpy in my opinion, I like seeing my team rise to the challenge ... unfortunately no other team is also rising

I like watching challenges in any sport. I see very little in F1 currently for Ferrari ... and I do admire Ferrari for being so pollished, very impressive.

Pete's opinion[/QUOTE]

Pete

Don't give up on F1 just yet. I will readily stand with you and admit that the on-track action in the form of over-taking has suffered due to the aerodynamics of modern F1 cars. The closing speeds between the car in front and the car chasing is small (unless it's a Minardi or Jordan), and the braking distances are incredibly small, which makes braking deeper almost impossible.

However, there is a glimmer of hope coming from the teams themselves. Here is the link: http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=30678

Reducing downforce 25% is a real step in the right direction. The reduction in tires and aerodynamic efficiency is a real cost-cutting measure. The teams also seek to keep the current V-10 which is a personal plus with me. I love the sound of the V-10 at 18,000 rpm.

Keeping the horsepower and reducing the grip will improve the show. The big horsepower keeps the drivers happy, and the reduced downforce rewards skill.

It could work.

 

I dont understand why so many of you are saying F1 is boring because of Michael, back in the days of Berger and Alesi who joined Ferrari at the worst possible time, a lot of people were laughing at Ferrari for having the best budget but the worst performing team on the grid, i recall the Italian press wanting the team principals head on the block, Canada 94 they were gods again, then the devils after that, 1996 Michael and Eddie joined the car was one of the worst Ferraris for a long time look what Michael done with it when it actually went the distance, finished on the podium in most cases in a much inferior car to any on the grid at the time he was a god, the next couple of years he battled with Damon, Jacques, and Mikka and still took the battle to the wire he was a god again, now the last couple of years he has had the best car and of course he is the best driver so obviously he is going to win, and people start slamming him for being boring, if Michael had not come on the scene and Ayrton was still here Ayrton would have gone on to win another 3 world championships, would he have been called boring i think not, ask yourself this would you like to swap shoes with Michael?

 

62 250 GTO,

I have agreed to drop this subject. The only comment I will make is that FERRARI is my team and I want them to win, but I do not want it to be so easy.


Brian,

Now that is a very good question. In the past the quality of the field was judged by the number of winners on the grid, WC or race winners. MS is by far the leader in both ... thus whether MS has got better or the rest worse the fact is we have a major disparity on the grid. Kimi is our only chance ... unless Williams and Webber make it happen.

Could not agree more, he is brilliant at this.


ralessi,

Sorry a fault of mine.

Ofcourse not, but I (and also Mark(study)) just wonder what still motivates MS ... I have to admit that I would be bored by now, as it just appears too easy. I thrive on a challenge, without that I am hopeless.


Fan512bbi,

But wasn't it so exciting to watch ...

Okay I will drop this now as it is getting boring for all of us.

Pete's opinion

 

Just read a funny comment in an English newspaper about the race: F1 is God's Scalextric and he only plays with the Schumacher car. That's why MS wins so dominantely.

I thought it was cute.


PS: Reminded me of Tillman's (?) comment a while ago about how F1 is like slot cars, only missing the big gap in the center of the track.

 

Now that would solve the passing and safety issue. Would require a huge investment in track upgrading and be real weird to watch , er no thanks

Pete