Hi all, I am very new to this forum and owning a Ferrari, I bought a 1991 Testarossa a week ago. The problem started when the brakes seemed a bit ineffective so I re-checked the pads and discs and they all fine. I started a short drive from Slough to Windsor in the UK and the brakes are a bit useless as you approach a stop (the last 20 metres or so), anyway, on the drive back the brakes started getting better and better until on approaching a set of traffic lights on approach the car was behaving as if I was pressing the brakes and it suddenly stopped. I thought it a bit strange, being only 100 metres from home I thought I would try and make the last stint, but alas on driving to almost 95 metres from my driveway, the car just stopped and smoke poured out of the rear. I immediately thought she died. I called Mr. AA to tow me the last 5 metres onto my driveway, I tried to push the car, but it was stuck fast. The engine would start so there was a bit of relief. On waiting for Mr. AA, 35 minutes from the catastrophic stop, I tried started her up and to my disbelief, she drove as if nothing had happened. Surely there is a problem, but what could it be? I suspect the brake servo, but can I eliminate the clutch, gearbox and other (expensive) items? As you can appreciate, I am worried about driving her. Could I also inadvertantly damaged other components? Any help or advise would be very much appreciated.
Thank you for the lightning response. All I need to do is find out how to fix it, any advise towards this would again be very much appreciated. I think I need to find a handbook or workshop manual. Again Thank you.
You say that the brakes were useless, what exactly do you mean, when the pedal is pressed not much happens ? Did the car stop in a straight line when the brakes were applied.? My thinking is that maybe you have a flexable pipe that has partially collapsed or when you checked the disk pads, were the calipers free ?
Hi, When I say the brakes were a bit useless, I mean that when you drive and press the brake pedal (which is relatively hard), the car starts to brake, but not as you would expect (i.e. rapid slowing of the car is not the case, is feels like a coast to standstill), it seems that using the gears to slow down seem more effective than pressing the pedal. Pads on both front and back are only 2 mm used,the discs are not worn either. the last 20 metres of braking (and using the gears to slow down) to standstill is more a natural slowdown than a footbrake stop (if that makes sense). The brake fluid level is fine and I have not had to top it up, although I suspect after yesterday's episode, I may have fried the fluid and will need to change it. Oh, yes, the car did stop in a straight line. I did not check the freeness of the calipers. Any thoughts? best regards Manesh
Could it be at all possible that you do not have the correct grade of brake oil. That to me sounds like the oil is racing oil of higher temp. Its horrible when cold, as if brakes dont work, but when oil is warmed it should be fine. Your braking should be similar feel as any daily driver.
The strange thing is that after a while, when things cooled down, the car drives normally, granted I have not gone a long drive to properly whether the problem persists. She did start up and I could select gears and drive backwards and forwards without the resistive feeling. My concern as you can appreciate is if this is something more serious, or is it likely to be an easy fix with some "sellotape and a cornflakes packet", what should I check and how should I check it? I know what calipers are, but exactly what should I check for on a 1991 Testarossa. Or should I give it in to the Ferrari garage for "Ferrari fix" (anticipating, feeling like a pelican afterwards (huge bill)). I have only had the car just over a week (24th July 2004) and I do apologise if this is old hat stuff.
Manesh -- When you say "normally" "when things cooled down" do you mean you still have the "ineffective" situation you initially reported? The handbrake is a completely separate mechanical system using drum brakes so if something is dragging a little, it could be OK-ish when cold (and things have shrunk a little), but much worse after some run-time (after things have heated up from the friction and distorted). Does the handbrake seem to work well/normally? -- e.g., when rolling very slowly down a slight incline (in N) does applying the handbrake grab well, and then when released does the chassis immediately roll freely again? Bottom-line IMO is that "smoke" out of a brake (and seizing) requires some level of disassembly/inspection/corrective action (Good luck limiting the $ damage -- nothing that "special" about TR brakes so any decent automotive shop should be able to help). PS Please fill out you Profile -- at least give your general location!
Hi, The handbrake does indeed work normally. I am a bit confused with the drum brake issue, I could only see rear discs and pads. I have not tested the car since yesterday and will do so once the rain stops and the roads are dry. I am now looking for a illustrative workshop manual I can use to identify the handbrake and brake mechanism so that I can eyeball before giving it in just in case it is something silly. Any ideas if there is a resource for "Blue Peter" diagrammatical illustrations of the system? like the good old Haynes Manuals. I have also now completed my profile.
For starters your brake fluid, Dot5.1 is Ok for use in that car. It is a glycol based fluid with minimum boiling points comparable to silicone fluid but also a lower viscosity for ABS brakes. The later TR's and 512 TR's had problems with the power boosters sticking accompanied by loss of boost. I have seen many of them go bad. The brakes are getting hot because the booster is holding the brakes partially on and after a period of inactivity during cooling the brakes release allowing the car to roll. The reason the rears are showing the temp problem is that most cars are designed to apply the pressure very slightly earlier to the rear brakes and this is prob the point at which yours is sticking. You should by all means confirm this but I believe you will need to replace the master/booster assy.
Manesh, my first thought would be brake calipers sticking, but Brian's post made a lot of sense, and he doubtless has a lot more experience of Testarossas than me. (I have none!) Very sorry you won't now be able to make it on Sunday, you could always come down in your other car...though I might be tempted to buy it! Dan
The TR drum-style emergency brake mechanism is housed inside the rear brake rotor so it's not visible from the outside even with the wheel off (and I have to give the F writers/editors a low score for not mentioning or showing anything useful about the emergency brake mechanism in the OM). Your report of no obvious operational problem is a sign that trouble there is probably unlikely, but I just thought I'd post a jpeg from the SPC to clarify the situation. PS Thanks for letting us know a little about you...
Great diagram, where can I get stuff like that from, the manual does not have this diagram in it. My course of action for this weekend inc tonight is; 0.1a) Bleed Master Cylinder (need some instructions on this, I presume it would be the same as a normal brake bleed). 1) Remove front wheels and examine clearance of pads and also bleed front system (just in case) 2) Refit everything in 1. 3) Remove rear wheels and examine clearance of pads and also bleed rear system (just in case) 4) Examine handbraking mechanism and check if the above internal pads are locked/free to move, check for wear. 5) Lube anything that needs to be lubed (advice on lubricants to use would be appreciated) 6) Put everything back together, fingers crossed. test drive on a very isolated road. I will video this repair for reference and compress to Divx (on proviso that I do not need to abort and give the car into a garage). Any helpful comments would be much appreciated. I will also replace all the pads whilst I am doing this change irrespective of existing wear, I suspect I baked the pads on the original problem. I will keep checking for any updates throughout today and the weekend. I have probably missed something in the list and again any comments would be appreciated. best regards Manesh
take it to a ferrari dealer and have them look or your next thread will be---------- i crashed my ferrari as the brakes didnt work-------
I, too, was surprised how little good information about the handbrake was even in the TR WorkShop Manual. That jpeg is from the TR Spare Parts Catalogue (587/90), which IME is a necessary companion to the WSM (and the wiring diagram) in order to have a more-useful and complete TR "manual".
Hi Steve, May I ask where you bought the manuals from, I think I need to invest in them, in order to learn more about this fiesty girl.
I've gotten most of my TR literature from Kurt White at www.ferraribooks.com and I want to praise them again for having a great site giving good information (which is something us DIYers often find hard to come by) about what might be available for each F model and posting prices. Still, a more local UK/euro source might work out better for you if the price is competitive with FerrariBooks -- e.g., probably wouldn't hurt to check with our FerrariUK friends (a.k.a. Maranello Concessionaires), and I'm sure others here can suggest some possible European-based F literature sources. I've always found good (not a cheap-o reprint/copy) F documentation, even if a little expensive, to be something that's easily resellable at no loss (or even a slight gain if enough years slip by!).
If you had smoke pouring from the brakes in back, I would say that the #1 possibility is that you were driving with the handbrake on. Please pardon me if this is a silly question, but are you sure that you know how the handbrake on a Testarossa (or a 348 like mine) actually operates? Does the handbrake warning light on your dash work? On your "course of action" list, the first thing I would do, if it was my car, would be to safely jack up the back of the car and put it onto stands, then see if the tires rotate when the handbrake is released, and stop rotating when the handbrake is applied. Would take only a couple of minutes. I have read numerous cases of people driving these cars with the handbrake on. I can see on my own car that it has been done in the past. In my own opinion, if you had a sticking brake booster or similar problem with the hydraulics, causing the pads and rotors to overheat, then your discs should be showing blue discoloration from the heat. Like "91tr" says, the handbrake mechanism, including the drum, is not visible unless you remove the rotor, so there would be no visible indication of the problem. I'll be interested to see what you find, keep us posted.
You are very correct about that but it does not explain the hard brake pedal or loss of brake ability.
Brian: You make a good point. In my scenario, if he was driving with the handbrake on, perhaps the rotors, calipers, and/or brake fluid became hot enough to cause the additional symptoms? I don't know for certain. But I think it would be wise to check the handbrake before getting into bleeding the system. I don't see any way that air in the lines could cause any of his problems. It could still be the master cylinder, or the booster, or a collapsed flexible hose, or..... I was simply suggesting that he check the handbrake first, because it's quite possible, it's quick, and doesn't cost anything. And as a new owner, he MIGHT have simply made a mistake. Edit: After looking at Brian's profile, I'd trust his advice 100% !!
[QUOTE But I think it would be wise to check the handbrake before getting into bleeding the system. I don't see any way that air in the lines could cause any of his problems. It could still be the master cylinder, or the booster, or a collapsed flexible hose, or..... I was simply suggesting that he check the handbrake first, because it's quite possible, it's quick, and doesn't cost anything. And as a new owner, he MIGHT have simply made a mistake.[/QUOTE] You are correct, the entire sys should be checked before throwing parts or large amounts of money at it.
Great advise, I am absolutely sure the handbrake was down, I understand that the handbrake is rachet operated, click click up, and then to release, press button, pull up and put down to floor. The light is also working in the dash, so I definitely would have noticed this. This was taught to me by the previous owner and I am very careful. The simple test I will do tomorrow morning and post the results. I have slightly shy'ed away from trying to fix it myself and am obtaining quotes to get it repaired properly and also get the entire car checked for any other things. I will keep you posted from tomorrow morning. Manesh
Hi, Well after a sleepless night thinking about the red head, I woke this morning and jacked up the rear as instructed. 1. The rear right (looking at the car from the back) moved relatively freely with no resistance whilst the handbrake was down, and as expected the wheel did not move once the handbrake was engaged. 2. The rear left (looking at the car from the back) again moved relatively freely with no resistance whilst the handbrake was down, and as expected the wheel did not move once the handbrake was engaged. 3. Both wheels move in the same direction whilst the other was being rotated. 4. On a very careful test drive, the brakes again are very ineffective. The pedal is very hard. 5. On touching the drum and discs, there was no abnormal temperature, not hot. Any ideas?
