STOP!!!! (New Brembo brakes)

Couldn't you do that now? Just change each bolt one by one, and it shouldn't affect the caliper, right?

 

Yes i could, but may as well leave it alone for now while under warranty.

 

Steven,
Just saw the pix at the beginning of this thread.

Please post a pix of the rear side of the caliper showing the other side of the bolt holes & how the brake lines attach.

The 308 calipers I've encountered all have mounting bosses parallel to the plane of the rotor. With the mounting bolts parallel to the axle. (See pix from parts book below). Is there a 90 degree adapter for mounting the BREMBO calipers to the 308 knuckles?

 

Good eye Verell and you are right. Here are a few of the other bits included with the Brembo kit. Read the installation manual and nearly all torque measurements are given as is some Red Loctite. Also, new Goodridge steel braided brake lines are also included (though Goodridge is already on her now, have a feeling differently configured units will be needed for the new system and Brembo supplied it ). As i see it, the only real 'work' is removing the old stock stuff and cleaning the bases where the new parts will be installed.

See pics below. It also came with a proper spec sheet as seen below.

 

My shop had a source for the aftermarket rotors, but I don't know who they are. I found a guy out in CA who will be making the rotors for me to my specs. www.************. He already carries rotors for other f-cars and appears to be willing to do some custom jobs including cooling ducts for street cars.

For track pads: Ferodo DS3000 PLUS. Aggressive pad, no fade, did not eat my rotors. They make a street/track pad (DS2500) and they worked great on my street car but squealed so much that I went back to the stock Brembos at double the cost. I've been using the Ferodos for 3 years now (track-only) and never had a problem.

Has anyone used Pagid or other pads for track? What are your opinions?

 

The devil is always in the niggling details. Things that shouldn't be: stuck, rusted, breaking, can't quite fit into place...

Take mounting a front caliper with 2 big bolts:

First time I pulled a 308 caliper & rotor to change a wheel bearing it took me 3+ hours. Due to several things like:

The S-curved hard lines that won't quite let you get wrenches on the caliper bolts.

Mostly due to the little thin shim washers (not shown in Brembo dwg - WHY?) that ensure caliper is exactly parallel to the rotor. They caused putting the 2 caliper mounting bolts in to take 30 minuites or so because they kept slipping around & falling on the floor, getting lost under the lift frame, etc.

Finally got PO'd & stuck the shims to the caliper w/crazy glue & had it assembled in 3 minuites.

Then it took a couple of more 10 minuite iterations measuring caliper parallelism to rotor, swapping the shim wshers between the 2 bolts to get the right combination for that caliper: (remove bolts, separate shims, remove crazy glue from shims & caliper, switch shims around, re-glue...)

 

Shhhhh, but i believe the Brembo pads are rebranded Pagid. Shhhhhh, you did not hear this from me ;-)

 

Hmmm... tonight i will light the circle of Magic Red Enzo candles clockwise and say a few prayers to the Almighty for his devine wisdom and assistance.

FYI Verell, my AC blows darn cold now with 2 lbs of R-12 in her.

 

So how much did all this cost (if you don't mind saying)?

Are you saying you've got an extra set of SS brake lines? Want to sell one set? PM me if so.

Thanks

Sean F.

 

Sean,

Price is around $2,450 or so. As for the "extra" Goodridge lines, they are on the car now (installed December 2002) and will just sell them with the stock brake kit to whomever wants them. Want to use the new lines out of precaution.

You can buy the Goodridge at many places like www.tirerack.com .

 

Steven
Is the price for front and rear or just front?
Philip

 

Front only. Have talked to many people before taking the plunge and they say no need to upgrade the rear UNLESS you REALLY have the spare $$$ AND ARE ALSO seeing some SERIOUS track time.

Brake upgrades on the cheap include using all stock and getting better pads. EBC Green Stuff V4 came with the 308 here and they do stop fairly well... but i want better.

 

I've been considering looking at upgrading to the 4-piston calipers out of a 2nd gen Rx-7 that I've got lying around.

These 4-piston calipers are known for their stopping power. The autocrossers & SCCA racers use the stock setup with high performance pads because they're so good.

I believe the rotor diameters & thicknesses are very close, but haven't actually compared the specs yet.

Would like slotted rotors tho.

Low on my priority because I'm not tracking the car & the stock brakes are still in vy good condition. However, will take a serious look when it's time to replace the rotors.

 

tirerack has slotted rotors shown on their web site.

 

Absolutely wrong!!!!!!!!

The first time you are driving in a heavy rain you will swap ends in a heartbeat...
The bias on a 308/328 is about 1.7:1 front to rear and it MUST be maintained.

This comes from experience....thank god I was not near other traffic when I spun out and that i did not hit anything...... But I immediately designed and installed rear big brakes and it has never happened again..

 

Atlantaman,

You are the first to mention this. Which exact front brake system and size did you use and had this problem? What were the pads front and rear? Am curious.

 

Hi guys,

My name is Eric Dahl, I was an engineer for Brembo North America for several years.
One of the things I did there was design and test the 308 aftermarket set being discussed here.
The caliper is actually a Lotus unit, not a Porsche. The basic casting has been used for many applications. The piston sizing is such that the brake pedal will have a bit more travel, as the front pistons have more surface area, which effectively shrinks the master cylinder.

We wanted to do a rear package to match, but there are many difficulties.
First is the parking brake, the 308-328 models used ATE components, and the parking brake was integral to the rear caliper. Brembo does not have a 4 piston racing type caliper with integral p-brake. So losing the ATE caliper would mean that an entire parking brake assembly and mechanism would need to be developed. Considering Brembo pricing. We decided that nobody would want to pay the $5000 plus it would cost for the rear axle set alone. It is a shame as the OE rear disc is ridiculoulsly heavy, and could really use some help.

The larger front kit does shift the braking torque to the front, but it is within an acceptable deviation. Also, for track work and heavy braking, the front would withstand the majority of the abuse.

I would recommend that you upgrade the rear pads to a Ferodo DS2500, to better match the front brake torque, and balance ot the system. Also the OE rear pad will fade long before the front, leaving a terrible brake feeling, and not allowing the front kit to work at its best.

I hope that proves interesting, feel free to ask me any questions.

Eric

 

Eric,

MANY thanks for chiming in. Am very much looking forward to using the system on the streets and various track events in 2005.

Thanks for the tip on choosing an appropriate rear brake pad. Will purchase a set so when the new Brembo front are installed the rears and 'matching' per your suggestion.

 

Whew!

I thought for a minute there Stephen was going off in the weeds!

Thanks Mr. Brembo Engineer!!!

 

AMEN and MANY thanks. Am right now looking in the OLD ARCHIVES of posts when Eric originally was discussing the (then new) 308 system.

As for weeds, already use EBC Green Stuff, but am not fully convinced they are the best to be found. Naturally i called Fchat sponsor Sodacom to get a set of D2500

MANY MANY thanks Eric and will read more of your posts from the OLD ARCHIVES

And thanks Rob for FerrariChat

(Said in good humor Speedy308) i got off the 'weeds' over a decade ago

 

This does not sound right.

I think you have misunderstood what actually caused the spin.

When racing and it rains you always move the brake bias forward so that you won't lock the rears ... and thus spin. Steven's modification will increase the front bias so this will be better for the wet road.

What I actually think happened is that you had a road pad in the rear and a semi-race pad in the front ... thus the rear pad will work better in cold conditions than the front thus you locked your rears.

Simply replacing the rear pads with a similar semi-race pad will ensure that the operating temperatures are the same and thus the brake bias will be maintained as the pads heat up (note the front will heat quicker though ...).

In the end it is far easier to drive a car with bugger all rear brakes than the other way around ... thus adding big brakes to the rear of your car sounds like a mistake to me. What has probably happened is the LARGER pad surface has REDUCED the grab and thus REDUCED the rear bias. Braking pressure relates to the pad surface area. If you increase the pad size you do not increase the clamping force on the disc ... unless you increase the piston size and play with the master cylinder.

Just my 2 cents worth
Pete

 

"Roll another one.....just like the other one......."

Easy Rider Soundtrack
Circa 1967.......

 

Thanks guys, I havent posted in a while.

I was very lucky to be with Brembo for some time, and had the chance to work with Ferrari SpA in italy in developing the CCM technologies. I learned a lot during those years and feel lucky to have been a part of that company.

The 308 cars were initially set up with more rear brake brake bias (but still front dominant) than the 348-360 cars. The 308 series had a higher CG coupled with a suspension geometry that allowed more weight transfer to come forward. They were known to get a bit sketchy at the traction limits and hard to recover once they began to rotate. The chassis design was based on the tire technology of the time, which was far behind current standards. The strong rear bias was to help keep the rear planted with the relatively soft suspension and tire sidewalls. Using modern tires and upgraded coil-over units will help keep the chassis attitude flatter and make better use of the stronger front brake package.

-as a side note, the Lotus caliper that is in the 308 kit is the basic architecture that the 360 Modena caliper is based on.

Given the opportunity to do the 308 set without the economies, and bean counters involved, I would have done some things differently and maximized the kit, but it would cost roughly $6000 for the full kit, and this is without a decent solution for the parking brake.

Anyway, I think you will enjoy the front Brembo kit Verell.

 

Ceramic Composite Brake Discs (CCM)??

any info you could share about the system such as do/don't - wear pattern - sensitivity to heat - or any place to find more info

would love to hear your experience