The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Piper's beliefs of what he 'thought' happened to the frame have been disproven......That's the SECOND mistake he's made............LOL!

 

I'm not upset, but Mr.Blank No Name with a Blank Profile with your constant sniping comments, you've just completely worn me out.

Go get another hobby....

I hear Allan Lambo needs some help in his office.......


And by the way a branch of my family ARE molecular chemists, and I'm familiar with the work they do.


Hey! Look! There goes a yellow 250LM! Let's check it out..........

 

Enzo DOES talk to me in fact......but we have MUCH MORE IMPORTANT issues than THIS!


Bwaaaaaahahahahahahahahaha!

 

Why not take a "DNA" sample of the portion of the chassis that Glick states is #0846...and compare it to a chassis built at the same time?
I suppose that David Pipers #0900 and so on...were built from a completely different stock of steel tubes.
Staff.

Staff
Forensic examination is in the works. To begin with 0900 and 0900a are built to P4 Blueprints. 0846 is not. In addition my entire chassis is made of completely different tubing than the part that would have burned at Le Mans. In addition the part that bent at the Targa in 67 that Wayne remembered, was repaired in the center of the tube with an entirely different type of welding than was used at the ends of that tube at a different time from the welds at the ends of the tube. Several experts took quite a look at that repair Marcel Massini being one. (This occured on the Wed. following Pebble.)

Doug
As Pebble Sunday came before the Tuesday where Wayne saw and meticulously inspected my chassis on the lawn at Quail his opinion may have changed.

 

Oh it's not his voice!

I was summoned to the Engineering Department at the Factory.

We met over a drafting table and discussed VERY SPECIFIC items..

He hand me the half finished drawings and said, "Here, you finish it.." and walked out of the room, back into the swirling mists of time...........

So I'm finishing it!

I was definately in Church, later that Sunday morning...while The World's Fastest Art Car waited quietly outside..........

 

I just can´t take it in what you all say.
All I say is:
Compare the steeltubes that was used for these Ferraris.
And...to my knowledge...These 3 or 4 or whatever P3/4...s....should have been built from the same "stock" of steel-tubes.
Therefore...Simple to take a sample from a genuine known P4...if the owner let you do it.
Staff.

 

P4-Staff,

If I understand, you want to know if the molecular properties of the steel tube will be similar to Piper's 0900 or to 0856. Do we know if the molecular properties of these tubes are different? Do we know the variances and standard deviations during the tube manufacturing process?

I guess what I'm trying to say is although it is a neat idea; we may want to figure out if we can get an answer before we break out the saws and start cutting.

I would love to get a copy of Jim G's booklet of evidence because it sounds like the answers are there. I don't think you can prove this case to 100% certainty, but it sounds like Jim has proven it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Regards,

Art S.

 

I have always thought Enzo only cared about what was going on at that given moment in time, but don't know that for certain, as I wasn't there.....so I just channeled Enzo himself, and he told me....I donta givva flyingg fugg!

 

Hi
What I think we can do is to post the document in Rossa. That way it will surport the site. There will soon be several more articles that will include much more specific information. It will take a bit of time to work out the details but Rob and I will try to do it soon.

 

As I said.
Let´s compare the steel tube structure that Glickenhaus think is authentic to a known authentic.
Staff.

 

Last Tues. as they were sitting next to each other on the lawn at Quail with their tails in the air that was very easy to do and many did. So far I've not heard from anyone who thought my car has the same steel structure as 0856 which is a good thing.

0856 is a P4
0900 and 0900a, as they are built to P4 blueprints have the same steel tube structure as 0856.
My car does not. It has the same steel tube structure as P3/P4 0846 as described in the "Technical Data Sheets" and the modifications described therein allowing it to accept a P4 engine and shortening it's wheel base from 2412mm to 2400mm. Jim Kinsler measured my wheel base on the lawn at Quail. Guess what? It's exactly what the "P3/P4 0846 Technical Data Sheets" say it should be.
Hard Cheese for some...

 

The debate going on concurrently over at Atlas F1 Nostalgia is VERY interesting....

Doug Nye is apparently now claiming that Wayne Sparling is singing a different tune. Though he continues to speak in tongues instead of just coming out and saying what he means. I hate that about the English sometimes.

At least our own Wayne Ausbrooks called him on it.

Sure would be nice to get folks like Wayne Sparling "on the record" in some official capacity, instead of this sort of apparent he said she said crap. Jim spoke to him directly.... nobody has said they have directly heard the guy say anything different, just this silly heresay crap. I guess I was not exactly right in my prophecy.... but I told you the "Piper Establishment" would find a sly means of refuting any evidence.

I can tell you one thing.... after having bought and read a number of his books and being quite impressed, Doug Nye is coming off as a "tosser" to me.



Terry

 

The best part of the whole week was seeing the smile on my Daughter's face. That's what really matters. The rest comes and goes but seeing your children smile that stays with you...

 

I've been away from work for a week of vacation, but the contents of this thread and the info coming out of Monterey gives me great hope. I will now take the small piece of genuine, undeniably authentic, B-17 bomber scrap metal that I personally dug up from a WWII crash site, and I will reconstruct an entire B-17 bomber AROUND that scrap of metal, and it will therefore BECOME the original B-17 bomber!!! The forensic truth is undeniable. The metal is original; the casting numbers are original; the heritage is TOTALLY undeniable. The people that live around the crash site just THOUGHT that a B-17 bomber had been totally destroyed on the morning of March 12th, 1943. Little did they know how wrong they were. They just needed somebody to EXPLAIN it too them! Boy will they be surprised when I fly over their farm in the ORIGINAL plane that they saw burned to a crisp and buried in a giant pit by bulldozers. How stupid those farmers were!
Of course never mind the small fact that my plane's engines won't be original, the body will not be the same one that existed at the time of the crash, and that the vast majority of the support frame will be a reproduction. But who cares about details?

All hail the glorious ORIGINAL!

And remember the instructions of the Talotians from Star Trek:

Wrong thinking is punishable; right thinking is as quickly rewarded!

 

Jim, again, glad it went well, relatively.

Having been through a non-internet version of your current "handbag fight"(THAT is funny)years ago, I am disappointed that it continues now electronically. What utter idiocy from people who likely have never sat in one, or worship replicars, yet cast aspersions on events of past.

I understand now why Felter jumped me on 0718, he is Strolls car guy/Bob Smith liason.

and here, friends is P4 Rep's opine on us Fchatters from Atlas F1...

Nothing more needs to be said.
Show more car pics.

Lee

 

have to agree with you on that Terry; after some 20 years of hearing My Nye spoken of as "the experts expert", I can only say I hope he gave other those other cars a bit closer examination than "...I never could find it...at Pebble Beach..." before he pronounced them genuine or not........

Do I smell a 'reputation' going up in smoke?

james

 

It's really difficult being an automotive journalist. You get lambased when you make a commitment to one side or the other, yet if you don't make a commitment, saying something like "based on the evidence I have seen, I believe".....you get attacked even more!

 

Well...I think #0844...#0846...#0848...were built from the same stock of tubes. Now...#0844 and #0848 still exists to my knowledge.
Just compare the portion of your chassis you beleieve are #0846 to the other two...(the same steel-tube). If it matches...good....but it is not #0846 to me.
#0846 was completely different.
Staff.

 

Congratulations Jim on a wonderful restoration. Based on the conventions of how the collector world verifies provenance you certainly have the car you say you have.

I love cars, especially vintage racers and I personally do not give a rats arse as to the opinion of the so called experts, especially pretentious morons like Nye.

Beyond the obvious reasons for undertaking the project, you have preserved a piece of history for those of us who really appreciate these beautiful machines. I don't care if it is never raced again. Just the fact that it exists is enough. That you display it (and all of your wonderful collection) so frequently and prominently is a great thing for all car enthusiasts.

More power to you and may your collection grow and flourish.

 

Wayne:

With all due respect, I think you might have misunderstood.

Mr.Nye has pretty much made a stand, right or wrong. PERSONALLY, I disagree with him, and believe if any car has the right to the number 846, it is this car.

What I am saying is that if he didn't express a point of view, as an "expert" he would have also been criticized.

Some years ago, I did an article on the Nardi Alfas. In regard to what most people thought was just one particular car, I had seen enough photographic evidence to consider that there were enough differences within a short period of time to state there were at least 2 very similar cars, and maybe even three.

Whatever number there actually were, all disappeared in the early 1960s, and have not been discovered since. I was just a year old when they were built in 1948 when they were built, so I "wasn't there". Because I didn't make a definitive statement, I was lambasted as much as if I did make one that was thought by many to be incorrect...and in this case NO ONE was actually there to "know".

My point is that no matter how strongly one believes something, there is still a difference between belief and absolute fact. From what I get, it APPEARS that the one person that, as far as I am aware, actually WAS there is telling different stories to different people.

When the car wasn't worth much money, no one cared. Now, because it is worth a LOT of money, everyone with a potential to profit in some way, does.