The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Hi all,

Could those who post stay on the subject please?

I'm interested in the historic connection between Mr. Glickenhaus's car and 0846 as raced and the gap that exists in between as somebody correctly pointed out earlier. As long as this historical gap exists nobody can be for sure what Mr. Glickenhaus's car is. And if there are ties bridging this gap then maybe they should be strengthened or when it turns out not to be 0846, they should be cut.

I'm not privileged to have seen the 104 plus pages and I haven't received my copy of the VM magazine yet so I'm very curious (also about what will further be published in Forza and Cavallino).

I'm also wondering how Mr. Glickenhaus came about buying this car? I'm fairly new to this forum so I'm not sure if this was already discussed. Those kind of stories about buying are most interesting.

Ciao, Peter

 

Nope.

Not gonna happen, not now, not ever. Too many personalities, too much hype, too much bickering.

Oh, check your PMs.

Dave

 

Dr. Schaller,

In post 170 you responded to my comment: "The discussion as to whether those original parts add up to 0846 is similar to the discussion: Is there a God."

With: ".....before one even discusses if God exists or not, there must be an agreement as to what constitutes God. Ask 100 different people what God is, and you will get 100 different answers."

This is exactly the point! Your level of belief regarding Jim's car depends on your personal views.

Good luck to you and may your beliefs bring you much happiness.

Sincerely,

Art S.

 

Dave,

The 0846 posts are all about bickering!

Art S.

 

There is some GREAT writing in here.....along with some not so great.

Sixteen, huh? That would make her the SECOND youngest Ferrari owner in the world!

Amanda and the Art Car at twelve, still lead...
Of course as Allan L., would have said, she's a Common308Owner! LOL!

Return mail on the way to ya, Mr. G!

It's all about the Project isn't it, when spending time with your kids.
Lil' Bull built the most amazing car the other day, from a mouse trap........

 

Hey Lee, great one! Can I quote you on this? You don't happen to have a brother named Hunter S Thompson do you? :0

Dale

 

Erik, is "399" the number of the 1999 F1 car that was cut in half at Monterey?

At any rate, I'm glad that I was able to entice at least one of you "those of who we do not speak" types to engage in what I hope will be an objective discussion of determining the authenticity of racecars.

My main point is that the "originality standard" that works for production cars is misplaced when you are talking about race cars. For example, the Daytona Spyder that Sheehan was representing certainly proves the old saw that "they are only original once." There can be no doubt that the color on that car was the color used by the factory (well, used by the factory on that day. Or, um, maybe the color used by the factory during that hour.)

But when you are talking about racecars, originality have never been the point. About the best you can say about a racecar is that it was only original the first time it ran around a track.

I know that you chassis guys use this as your touchstone, which, again, makes sense for production cars. A production car with a destroyed chassis is typically (but not always) scrapped.

This is why I find this 99 F1 car an interesting hypo. Assuming the car gets a new chassis, does this make it a different car, a replica of the "original" car, or the same car?

Dale

 

Lee, you guys must get some good stuff over der in the Hill Country.

This is why I like my Zeitgeist idea. (I also like it because I know how to spell it.) A positive spin is to say that Jim's car captures the spirt of #0846. The negative approach is to say that no one else has come forth with anything that even comes close.

Here's what we know: Jim has accumlated some forensic evidence that indicates that his car has some of #0846's DNA. I'll leave it to Jim to detail this evidence further.

Here's what we don't know: David Piper, and the others who were involved in the chain of ownership, are doing the Black Panther thing, i.e., Dem's dat know, ain't talking. Dem's talking, don't know. Why the tight lips? You probably know better than I.

I have been told that trying to apply logic to an irrational proposition is one of the first signs of insanity or genius. I forget which one.

So I'm probably nuts to even try to think logically here, but here goes:

1. Door number one is that Jim is correct. His forensic evidence proves that his car contains some of the parts of the P3/P4 car that we know as #0846.

2. Door number two is that Jim smoked too much wacky weed during his mis-spent youth and that his forensic evidence and $2 will not even buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

3. Door number three says that Jim is the victim of an elaborate fake. That is, somebody at some point went through a tremendous amount of trouble to fake the forenisc evidence, e.g., the burn marks, on chassis that Jim brought. Who would have done such a thing? My guess it would have to be the same guy who was on the grassy knoll that horrible day in Dallas.

Did I miss any other logical outcomes?

Your thoughts? Dale

Ps My dogma ran over your karma.

 

I don't think your analogy holds up. Your new body cells were created by an internal process; not an exteral process, like a restoration shop.

 

Add suggestion:

Door Number 4: Mr. Piper screwed up and mistakely sold Mr. Glickenhaus #0846 and has been throughly p/o ever since. Plus, all the brokers who realized how much commissions they missed out on due to Mr. Piper selling the wrong chassis are ticked at both Mr. Piper and Mr. Glickenhaus.

 

Certainly a possibility, but some of us are neither dealers nor brokers, and have no vested interest in the outcome, other than trying to determine the truth.

 

Thanks Art! I try and establish my beliefs based on emperical data, and not on emotion. I would like to have ALL the available data in regard to this situation.

 

I´ve been following the various threads about 0846 for a couple of months now and I must say that they are interesting at the most and entertaining at the least. Here a story for evaluation b/c I´m quite unsure about the originality of my car. In Decem ber 2001 I bought F1 87 Turbo 097 ex Berger. It was completely rebuilt and given to G. Berger. He sold it to a friend of his, C. Schwemberger-Swarovski, who stored it in his barn in Austria. I was able to see the car there once as a twen together with his nephew. Later the car passed through two more hands and ended up in the Nürburgring museum, before I acquired the car. The car was therefore "brand new," but sat still for 13 yrs. I sent the car to Maranello to what has now become the Corse Clienti F1 department. The car was not drivable / usable, unsafe, ... The engine block wall used to befrom magnesium which rots awith time and has therefore been replaced with a part from aluminum. All screws were replaced, brakes, new. Some engine parts, new. Fire extinguisher, new. Some suspension parts, new. External Starter, new. One part of the body is numbered numbered 102 instead of 097. Later it was decided that the turbos needed rebuilding, since they leaked excessive oil. After two years of racing the car I had a little shunt resulting in another repair: The right back wheel, new. Right back wishbones, new. ETC...
By the way I received a statement of authenticity from Ferrari for the car.

Do I own an original Ferrari F1??? I am getting quite nervous, so I decided to clear this up before I continue racing this car and I would need another engine rebuilt, or maybe only a gearbox... which would further dilute the authenticity of the vehicle.

DB

 

Excellent post because you have proved my point. Namely there is no such thing as an original racecar, or at least not in the normal usage of that word.

I can't see how anybody can claim that your car is not an authentic Ferrari race car, even if you need to replace the engine, the gearbox, and so forth and so on. (Then again, this is the Internet where anybody who has mastered how to turn on a computer is an instant expert in just about everything. So perhaps I should not be so bold as to say that, "I can't see how anybody...')

If I were you, my friend, I wouldn't lose a minute of sleep worrying about the authenticity of your car. Just keep driving that son of a gun like you stole it.

Thanks much, Dale

 

I wasn´t really worried ;-) nless the car used to be a rolling chassis and you add engine, electronics, etc...

Another interesting story, I´m sorry I don´t know the serial number of the vehicle concerned.
About a year ago the only completely original 917 was dicovered / bought in France. Why the only original one? Because it was never returned to the Porsche factory, where they swap everything around according what just happened to lie around. Once again common practice with racing cars. The car had no engine, the dash was eaten up by mice, the fibreglass body felt like jellow, ... the car was a mess, but absolutely original. It is now in restoration for the next couple of years, because the new owner intends to drive it. On one hand this is nice, because these cars were built to be driven. On the other hand I personally would have kept this one the way it was and not changed and repaired a thing, but I´m not a collector I prefer to drive. So it always depends. (But then again its a Porsche so who cares , no offense it was a great car)

DB

 

Nigel> In your case I would say we're not talking about restoration or re-creation, but merely about (albeit heavy) maintenance. I would have no problem whatsoever in acknowledging that you own this specific ex-Berger F187.

off topic: Just checked your public profile: mighty impressive (GT/L and a BB!)

 

This post of mine may help with the probably history of #0846: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134362675&postcount=27

But Jim has posted somewhere else that he went to the Goodwood festival of Speed and met Piper ... Piper's wife (or Piper) mentioned that he had another of these P4 thingies at home if Jim was interested after Jim had spent some time looking at #0900 ... I think that is how it started (The wheeling and dealing never stops ... )

Pete

 

That's it in a nutshell......

The 'gap' goes out into the metal fab shops of Italy, where Ferrari outsourced the fabrication........

*waves towards the country shaped like a boot*

Piper used the same guys, IIRC.

 

So please explain to me what is the difference with the early history of #0846 ... and what really is the difference with Jim putting a new (NOS) body on it ... just replacing parts as required to keep the car in a good condition.

In the end it is not the chassis, engine, any single component of the car that makes the car THAT car, but how it is represented over its life ... ie. when entering events.

Thus the F187 Ferrari was entered as car X over time and no matter how many parts they had to replace due to Berger's lapses of concentration ... the same car returned again.

Because race cars are a constantly evolving mechano (sp?) set you cannot get all twitchy about component numbers.

Basically Ferrari built 4 P4's (including #0846 which was a converted P3) and they raced them ... over the few years of competition EVERY single car would have had parts swaped between them as the mechanics worried about getting them ready in time. Most definitely they did not stop and think **** if I put this part on this car it is no longer 100% genuine (and caused FerrariChat members issues in 30 years time ) ... all they cared about is that X drivers were going to use that thing over there in the next race.

THUS where does this leave Jim?

Well as far as I am concerned if he can prove the following parts belonged in the collection of parts Ferrari made to run these 4 P4's and that the chassis is one of those parts ... he has a genuine P4 Ferrari as made by Ferrari:
1. Chassis.
2. Engine.
3. Gearbox.
4. Suspension corners ... allowing even for replacement over time for maintenance.
5. Some of the body ... remember bodies are repaired, replaced ... thrown away as they see fit, so demanding an original body is like demanding your wife remains a virgin ... while you participate in a normal intimate relationship.

The only reason the chassis becomes so important is because Piper as usual refuses to keep records! ... why because he can then wheel and deal and make more money out of all the stuff he has, because you just never really know if the part you are buying may have won some championship for Ferrari or somebody some day

Thus one day hopefully Jim will be able to trace the history of just about every major component and sit back saying:
1. Chassis is the continuous history of #0846, ie. repaired ... and thus won Daytona in '66 (I think).
2. Engine ran in car X and won this or that ... of failed.
3. Gearbox ran in car X and leaked oil and caused a failure, or whatever.
4. Left rear suspension corner was once used on car X on day Y.
5. Right rear on car X ...
6. etc.

IT IS A RACE CAR and keeping parts on one chassis is NOT important. Ensuring the car race fast,successfully and reliabily was all the Ferrari team cared about.

Pete

 

Only the doors are fibreglass on an REAL P4 ... I believe.

Pete

 

A careful reader will remember hand hammered panels by "Old Man Allegretti" (Sp?)

Not the son, now .....the Old Man....

Then you have the Max Wakefield comment......

This is pretty hard for a newbie to jump in and pick up and follow.....

You'd be better off waiting for Cavallino to come in the mail. Lynch has posted he's almost thru with it......

And if you use an English wheel, you're tagged out. Follow?????

 

You got your pick of glass or metal, in Piper's barn.........

 

This is exactly the point I was trying to make with my post.
I do not wish to engage into the subject of the 0846 thread, but I was of the impression that there is more of a general discussion of authenticity inside this thread and how it is measured with respect to historic race cars. These cars need to be used in order to preserve them for the public. Usage means restoration and maintenance. Maintenance means not every part will be original (ever checked the pistons in one of the GTO´s ) I would think that if any car is allowed to run in the Historic challenge it should be considered authentic (with the exception of some cars residing in GB) Ever wondered why the starting grid diminished since Ferrari started their authenticity program???

DB

 

With most cars they are built by the factory, sold to X, modified by X, sold to Y, modified by Y and so on ... but no matter what modifications happen it is still the same car.

If the modifications and resorations of x, y and z amount to a greater percentage of the car than what x bougth from the factory, than it is no longer a Ferrari; it is an xyz.

 

Great point, again. Please keep it up because what I'd really like to see is some discussion of how these great racecars should be judged. I'm afraid that a lot of people have already made up their mind about Jim Glickenhaus's car, in many cases without even seeing the evidence. But I'm hopeful that maybe we can move on and talk about how future cars should be judged.

Clearly, there needs to be some standards because otherwise we would end up with a single "run what you brung" class. The problem beling that while a period correct replica class might be interesting to watch (for example, I had more fun watching the Challenge Race at Montreal a year ago than the F1 race., i.e., there was more metal to metal going on in the Challenge Race than in the F1 contest), it would not be the same as seeing authentic cars racing each other.

So let me repeat myself (being an old college professor, I'm used to repeating myself), I don't think that originality can, by itself, be the key. Unless everybody else, I'm not sure what the key or keys should be. Thus, the purpose of this thread.

Thoughts?

Dale