I have owned my car since 1995 and have had this problem ever since, even over a wheel alignment and rim and tyre change. The car seems to get light infront and nervous / twitchy in the straight ahead position, at speed. I end up putting both hands on the wheel over 100 mph/ 160 km and becoming ultra alert towards a weaving, or sideways twitching that seems to be induced by the road surface. On an ultra smooth road the car feels fine but is pulled around by the nose on a worse road surface. At low speed ie up to 60 mph / 100km its heavier, steady and BMW like. Its most steady in a sweep at speed on any road with my inputs to get it to turn quite heavy but very solid. I have checked the steering and find the the slightest input on the steering wheel does translate to a corresponding movement on the wheels. Ie no play in the rack. Car has 48000km or 30000 miles, 15000 miles of which are mine and no accident damage at all. I have changed rims and tyres to 18" recently and did a wheel alignment at the tyre change where i mentioned this to the technician. He said he would put in more negative ? ( top in ?) camber and toe in ( front in ?) infront. He reduced negative ? camber at the rear as it looked very exaggerated with the 18" wheels. He also checked all the control arms etc and said they were all tight. He mentioned that the alignment was within spec though to begin with. This helped but only in that it feels heavier and confident through sweeps at any speed. Straight ahead is still wishy washy. Where do i go to now with this ? I want the feeling of being on rails going straight at any speed. And while im at it, will someone, anyone, on this planet, please sell me a new or used Tubi / Ansa ? These things or suppliers do not exist in South - Africa. Greg.
Get someone else to check the alignment to verify the first guys work. Front toe to be about 1-2 mm total in, or 1.5-3 with 18" wheels may be better. Rear toe to be 3-4mm or 3.5-5mm total in with 18" wheels. Cambers around 1-2 neg each end is enough for stability, could write pages for handling/tyre wear advice though! Caster angle symmetrical, and around 4 deg. More if you can get it. Make sure the load rating of the tyre is correct at both ends. Make sure pressures are up...probably around 34 Front 38 Rear for an 18" tyre COLD. In the 40's HOT. Check shock condition etc....what car do you have....anti dive geometry model with convex wheels ('88 on), or early std geometry concave wheel car?.
I have 89 with ABS. I changed the rims because of the ugly convex ones the car came with. I think i have a printout at home showing the values before and after alignment. I will compare them with your specs tonight. All the hardware seems to be good. Shocks, tie rods, rack etc. I run the Pirelli Rosso tyres at 2.2 bar / kpa front and 2.3 bar / kpa rear. There is definately no wallowing on the low profile tyre sidewalls. Indeed harder pressures make the nervousness worse and the values i have given above seem to dampen the nerves making the steering noticeably heavier and more confident. Are all other folks 328's rock steady and confident at speed in a straight line ?
Yes, 328's are little gems when set up right, all the way to 160mph. Check the load rating of the tyre. On the 16" it's important to have the correct "N" rating too. The higher N rating must be on the driven wheels, so if you've got an N1 on the front, you'll need N1 or higher on the back. Most likely is N2 or 3, but you need to check the side wall. The load rating is written on the tyre placard on the car and on the tyre sidewall. With your 18" tyres I have no experience to base any advice on, suffice to say I think it's unnecessary. 18" makes any car twitchy and uncomfortable when it's supposed to be on 16". 328 chassis is designed to be "loose" and lurid slides are easy to control. Bolting on big grip simply makes them more sensitive and less forgiving, unless you trim spring rates and roll bars to suit the tyre better.
I can't give you any technical advice on this, but my 87 328 (non ABS of course) is beautifully steady at high straight line speed, in fact it seems better at high speed than lower speeds, seems to be glued to the road. My car has 6500km and I have done nothing to it since owning it 18 months. It has original type Goodyear Eagle tyres and standard non ABS wheels.
Just to elaborate on what ferrarifixer said: When your wheels were replaced on your ABS car, if the ABS wheel offsets (different from standard 328s) were not kept and the original non-ABS offsets were used, this would definitely increase the scrub radius and perhaps give you the feeling of fightng the steering wheel more. Would check this first. Good luck! best rt
Greg, the Euro spec 1985 308GTS here was the same way UNTIL i completely redid the suspension and lowered the car. i KNOW the feeling you are referring too and it indeed made me VERY nervous! What seems to have totally solved the light front problem was that the new suspension also allowed lowering the car about 2 inches front and 1.5 inches in the rear. It is about aerodynamics and if you have access to a wind tunnel you may find that with your car as it stands now is lifting the car under speed. The combination of lowering the car closer to the ground for more efficient use of ground effects combined with a touch more aggressive lowering of the front will provide more down force and, hence, better road grip at speed. Please see the tire spacing from the top of tires to wheel wells on the pic below. Hope this helps. FYI, the shocks/spring package was purchased from FerrariChat.com sponsor http://www.nicksforzaferrari.com/forzaferrariwebsite1028.htm . In the second pic you see the BEFORE (top) and AFTER (below).
All the advice you guys give is relevant. Snj5 especially the offset. when i put the rims on they stuck out from the body a bit, 10 mm or so on the rears. The car veered wildly all over the road as if the rear was trying to overtake the fronts. I mean wildly. I feared swapping lanes inadvertantly. I sawed the steering wheel to stay in my lane and get home. The shop fitting them was closing early on the friday and shut the doors behind me as i left. I took it back carefully on the Monday and they admitted that they still had to machine the hubs on the inside of the rear mags to bring it in line. Once they did this it was like chalk and cheese. The only thing that causes me to remove the focus from the 18 " wheels, is that the car felt nervous infront before the new rims when she still had the stock 16" convex rims and origional Goodyear tyres on. ... ( however now that i think of it i had 245 x 45 x 16's on the rear and not 225's x 50 x 16 as standard spec !!! ) Now i have 255 rear and 225 fronts. I wonder if its not the ( too ? ) wide rears that are trying to steer the fronts ? ? ? although this i would expect in a sweep where the scrub of the wide rears makes them twist outwards ie try go straight, causing the rear of the car to move outwards, tightening the turn, and me to saw the wheel outwards in compensation. Straight line it should make no difference ? Enjoy the music, as much as i would love to lower the car, in South Africa exotic parts, expertise ( aside from the dealers) etc are largely non - existant. I hate taking even my Landcruiser for a service ( even the dealers) because i wonder what is going to come back damaged or loose this time. Also i made sure, double sure, that i retained the origional OD of the wheels so as not to affect any geometry. My car should handle at least as well as stock ( with the origional wheels ) before i consider improving on that with lowering.
My stock 328 is nervous too, and always has been. It's running (I believe) 255/50/16 on the back and 225/50/16 on the front on stock rims. It tramlines pretty badly if there are road grooves parallel to my direction of travel. It's not scary, but it does require attention. It's not the tires either, as I saw the same behaviour with Bridgestones and Kuhmos
I have noticed that on my wife's 328 86, but it is on certain roads that, although they are highways, have worn grooves in the road from constant traffic, it seems that the car is forced into the grooves and wobbles around, it's unnerving. I was driving a TR on the same road and felt the exact same wobbling. I thought a hydrolic damper would help, but I haven't researched it at all. On smooth roads, I don't have the problem.
I bought my Tubi's from www.hgparts.net in Germany. They will ship anywhere. Hopefully you own a Gold or Diamond mine down there because the Rand isn't too strong these days and tubi's aren't cheap, but I found HG Parts to be the best deal around. Paid $ 2200 for a pair for my 550.
A couple of personal observations: REgarding alignments, it is extremely important that the car be full of fuel and weighted (see manual). If it is not, alignment will be off quite a bit. I put 17 inch wheels with 225's front and 245's rear on my 89 GTB. While they seemed to have more grip on smooth surfaces, I like the way the car drives and rides better with stock setup. It just feels like the fatter, heavier setup overwhelms the springs and shocks somewhat. Anytime you increase tire width, any car will want to follow grooves and irregularities in the road more than before. Ferraris without power steering will communicate road irregularities more than any other car I know of but they track straight even when the steering wheel is kicking around. I recommend "road force" wheel balancing which reduces minute wheel bouncing quite a bit improving the ride and reducing steering kickback. I would also experiment with higher air pressures to see if that helps. I have read that early 328's will "wander" at speed, but I had an 87 GTS previously and did not notice any wandering with that car either. Dave
Greg, I had the same problems you are describing, and esp. so on pavement that is slightly rutted from trucks and buses. I had it looked at by both my Ferrari technician and an independant frame/alignment shop(alignment performed, wheel balance checked, complete inspection of suspension by both shops). Their determination was that I needed a new steering rack. It was curious, because, like your situation, any amount of movement in the steering wheel, corresponded to a similar amount of movement in the front wheels...I was confused, but they explained that their is a bushing in the rack that can fail, and this can cause the symptons I was experiencing. I ordered a new rack from Ferrari UK, had an alignment performed, and all is well now. Dave
Not to sound like a goof or anything...But are you sure the car has never been in some kind of accident? If available in your area, have a good body shop perform a frame check to make sure everything is straight. I have seen a few 308/328 with damage to the front that was repaired but not very well, caused major wandering problems at highway speeds. You could also have woren front suspention components like busings, etc. One thing regarding the 18 inch wheels though, you will always have a wandering car with this set up. Those wheels,combined with the low profile tire will make a problem that you had before with the suspension, that much more noticable. Just a couple of thing to check. Oh...do you have the stock wheels for the car? Have you tried to put those back on to see if the problem has been cured by the work you have done so far? If not I would give that a try before doing anything else. But if you aligned the car with a 18 on it, then this may not work. Just a thought.
Oky doky. Analysis of all the replies gives me the following: I'm not alone. These cars will tramline with wider than stock wheels. The worse the road the worse the problem. If there is a small flaw in the hardware this may be exacerbated by ... not so much 18" wheels .. i fail to see how that can make a difference if the total OD is the same ... but by wider than stock wheels grabbing more road and introducing more sideways torque into the suspension. Aftermarket wheels must have origional offset. This is critical in retaining origional geometry and handling. I'm told ( by the dealers ) that the chassis / suspension will flex if the track is widened. I know my car is virginal having had no accidents. I dont want to believe that the rack has failed bushings as this is a mission. Are these racks notoriously soft ? 30 000 miles is not a lot. Modern cars steering can feel new till way over 100 000 miles. Taking it to the dealers will almost certainly result in a replaced rack whether it needs it or not as motor shops just are this way here. They will even fail and replace a brand new rack given the chance. Ferrari dealers are very puritan here too and they will certainly attack my decision to put on aftermarket rims and if the problem persists after replacing the rack they will blame it on the rims. Expensive round trip to Square one. However i did the alignment with the car unweighted. Fuel ? who knows. I always took this weighting specification with a pinch of salt as the variance in the stock specs is quite wide ( 3-5) mm etc. so i thought what the hell then with weighting. I will try this next. Do a weighted alignment with the 16" origional wheels. If this fails i will have a long hard look at the rack, but i really dont want to How much are these things ? Manu at Scuderia Systems UK is very helpful in getting me a TOOBY As for the gold mine.. the thing will cost ultimately prolly R20 000.00 or $ 3000.00 Many folks earn that a year here tho im sure thats a worldwide phenonemon. Greg.
To check the rack bush simply jack the front wheels off the ground and wiggle the road wheel in and out a bit...if it moves the rack up and down on the passengers side...the bush is buggered. Turning the steering wheel will not reveal the slack bush.
Ferrari spent a lot of money getting the wheel and tire size correct for the car. You change the size and the tire type everything changes. Big wheels and tires feel more of the road so are more affected by the road surface. Without power steering any changes you make is magnified so you feel worse or better. Why do you think the race cars test, it is so they can alter the car to suit the new input for the driver and hopefully sort the car for the race. some times thing work and sometimes things do not. Bigger wheels are not such a great thing to do to the car. New stress is induced to the working parts sometimes stressing to failure, and new lateral and longitudal forces are working and in reality we cannot really make judgment if they are better or worse as we do not have the equipment. If you really need big wheels why not buy a tractor!
I already have a tractor. Still your point is valid as it serves to ground the uncompromising restlessness in some of us and sets a base line standard against which excellence in thinking can be measured.
In some cases, especially on the 308/328, what you have are some limitations of the technology of 20 years ago, including the inability to have tires with profiles lower than 50-series with good road qualities and high speed safety characteristics. That's partly why 308's went from 14" to 16" tires on the QVs, with little other changes in suspension. If you fit 16" QV wheels on a older 308 and you IMMEDIATELY have better handling, and a safer car to drive. I don't anyone who has made that change and is sorry. If you "upsize" the stock tires on a QV from 205/55's front and 225/50's rear, to 225/50's front and 245/45's rear, the car again handles MUCH better while still retaining the same overall tire diameters, but putting a bit more rubber on the road. It's made a big difference in improved handling when I drive on the track. Lots of 308 and 328 guys do that "upsizing" and I don't know anyone who has made that change and is sorry either.
My 86 328 is steady as a rock over 100mph, it has stock wheels and Dunlop 8000 tires, it also is a high milege car, the steering rack has never been replaced and is very tight handleing. If your alignment is to spec I'd look at other areas such as wheel bearing play or ball joints, you possibly could have a bad shock that would cause this or suspension bushings.
In my experience, it is a wheel and pressure issue as well. Your pressure is too high and your fronts are too wide. 225 is fine for the front, but I suggest trying lower pressures.
How's the condition of your suspension's bushings. Are they old, dry, and cracking? How's the shocks and springs? Are they feeling socky..keep on bouncing now?
Hey Mike, One cautionary experience. When I was running 225/50x16 fronts (A032R) I sliced the edges of the tires on the fender lips @ Gingerman. This was running a stiffer (25 - 30% uprated) but slightly shorter spring. 205s cured the problem. Philip
One of the things I like about Italian cars is the feedback from the steering wheel. In my day, this was called "road feel", and the Ferrari shows why we called it that. I got my 328 back from the shop once and thought that the shop had hosed the suspension, until I realized that it was the road. Some roads in Massachusetts feel like they left the horses on the road and just paved over them. There's a left-turn lane in Acton that will tear the steering wheel out of your hands if you're not careful -- not just on the Ferrari, but on the Alfa and Evo, too. I read in Road&Track that there's a road in England that has that effect so badly that the locals called in an exorcist to deal with the "haunted" road. FWIW, my experience with the 328 (stock rims and tire sizes) is that it is extremely sensitive to road surfaces at lower speed (30-40 mph), and less so at higher speed. But aerodynamics becomes important at higher speeds. My first "speed run" with my 328 showed a bit of nervousness I traced to a loose roof latch. You may want to measure the bumper height front and rear on your car. A single sharp impact can cause a surprising amount of "wear" on coil springs -- as much as a decade of "normal" wear. If the rear suspension is sagging at all, you might be getting wind under the front of the flat-bottom car, causing less than normal loading on the front wheels at speed. I don't know if the SA model is the same (I don't recall any differences of this nature from the spare parts book), but US vehicles of the '80s were subject to the "standardized bumper height" rule (18 inches) imposed by the insurance companies, and my US model 328 is pretty close on that. I've also noticed that tweaking the tire pressures by even a single psi has a noticable effect on handling. These are highly tuned cars -- and not just the engines. Think left turn and you did. Mine also seems "happier" in turns than just tracking down a straight road. (They're also a pain in a tight parking garage.) These are the prices you pay to have a roadable race car. But because it's so tunable, there's a lot of tweaking you can do to improve things. You might want to do some web searches on alignment and suspension tweaking -- there's tons of data on the web, and some of it is even accurate. About the only adjustment that isn't "built-in" is ride height. As Stephen mentioned, there are a number of upgrades you can apply -- but then you have to re-tune the suspension to the new geometry.
Thanks for the warning. The same would likely be true with a lowered suspension. Other than urethane bushings, my 308QV's suspension is still stock.
