The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I think the guys coming from the American muscle car arena have different standards, with good reason. In the case of most muscle cars, tens (or hundreds) of thousands of each model were built, and it was the options on a specific car which now give it value and rarity.

Thus, the correct chassis (which originally carried those options) becomes critically important.

In the Ferrari world, and particularly in the vintage racing Ferrari world, there are very few of any given model. How many P3/P4 cars built? Ten or so? And, furthermore, as race cars virtually all of these cars were crashed, rebuilt, modified for a specific race, etc.

So options, original features, etc are much less important. The rarity comes from the car itself.

I realize this doesn't answer the question of "how much car is required to be considered *the* car" but it might help to explain why some posters here seem to be speaking past each other-- their frames of reference are just completely different.

And, for the record, having followed this controversy closely for the last few years, I sincerely hope that Jim's car is 0846!

 

I just want to clarify before some get confused again (you know who you are) ... that the reason these cars are fakes is because they converted a Cuda into a Hemi ... and thus swapped chassis identities.

Jim is not doing that, he believes his chassis is #0846 ...

Again continous history is clear that in the Cuda and Hemi case the Cuda got some interesting Hemi parts ... but still remains the same base car and will never be a genuine Hemi. But ofcourse that was not the builders intention ...

If Jim can prove that his chassis is #0846 then whatever other parts he replaces due to maintenance or modification the car is #0846 ... maybe not as it left the factory ... but that is not the point.

Pete

 

Having consultant status means I can stir the pot and not answer the questions (well, that's the way it works in the business world).

Since we're talking about chassis numbers, race cars and renumbering, what about some of the modern GT competition cars that are running around. In some cases, a privateer took a damaged run of the mill production car (or two) and coverted them extensively to compete at Le Mans, ALMS, etc... I believe that some of these cars have been given new chassis numbers by the teams that constructed them. These cars did not come out of the hallowed walls of Maranello as race cars. Following the line of arguement the chassis has been modified and renumbered by someone besides the factory, then they are no longer Ferraris, correct? I'm not talking about the official race cars that are available, I'm talking about cars like the Prodrive ones.

Race teams have a lot of skeletons still in the closet. This is still going to get very interesting...

 

Lets say the car crashed 20 years ago, and has been sitting doing nothing. Lets say only half of the original chassis and suspension components remain, and it is of the tube type. Lets say less than half of the original body remains. As to the motor, only the block and one of the heads remains.

The chassis is rebuilt to the original design by replacing the missing tubes, but the missing tubes are where the chassis id makings were.

A new body is fabricated, based on factory drawings and photos, but the original parts which can be repaired are used.

The motor is rebuilt with parts that have to be fabricated, as no NOS parts still exist.

Is this car still the original car? I would say no.

The percentage needed of the original car to determine if it should be considered real or a replica by agreement of the car community has to be decided, otherwise debates like this will go on forever

 

I certainly do not beleive JG did anything inappropriate at all. I sincerely beleive he found something he didn't ever expect ti find.

My Cuda story was to answer a question asked earlier that went something like "what if you switched a chassis, is it now a different car"


Ed

 

Prodrive renumber chassis on the 550? Thats the first I heard of that. If they did in fact do that then it could cause tremendous confusion.

Ed

 

Of course the musclecar standard is different. We covered this a very long time ago before the 0846 ban on posts.

However the chassis number is EXACTLY what differentiates Ferraris. Its not a matter of a correct chassis but the original chassis. That is how they are referred to ie 0846. I beleive a substantial part of the chassis is at minimum required to claim provenence to a given car. Since, as you pointed out, they were raced and changed around, crashed, repaired and so forth, its not the options or original features that make the cars what they are. Its the chassis. I can show you several pics of 0846 during 66 and 67 and the configurations (cars) are all different. Thats what makes this so interesting and so emotional. Nobody cared back then what these cars would mean to people 37 years later.

The term "correct" and the term "original" are different. Again, the proper definition is important.

A correct part for example would be replacing the engine in a car with another similar engine. If I blow the motor in my 427 vette I would need to replace it with another 1969 427 vette engine, preferably one with the date codes close to when my car was constructed. Its then the correct engine, not original engine.

If you replace a chassis, you are essentially changing the car. Its just were the line is drawn.

I think regarding American cars, you can get permission to replace a chassis from DMV or some authority and they will issue new VIN tags to place on the chassis. I know this is done with some late model wrecks. But this is not really relevent anyway.


Ed

 

In fact it IS established the chassis is the car. It has been decided and accepted a long time ago. But that is not to say under extenuating circumstances a chassis can not be proved to be a given number when the number is not on the chassis. What is being attempted now is to determine if the chassis IS the 0846 chassis. Some but not the majority are concerned so much about the percentage of the rest of the car as crazy as it sounds. In my opinion I would think the proof must be very convincing and I'm sure JG understands this also. Thats why he has gone through as much trouble as he has.

You are correct in pointing out the problem of the missing chassis ID tag. Thats what makes all this an on going debate. Trying to establish a chassis without the identifing piece. Jims car will forever be a car with a very interesting story

Ed

 

Ed, I was not saying JG did anything wrong at all. I was just trying to ensure your very apt and correct story did not confuse some that seem to like to be confused.

IMO the Cuda example is completely different (ie. chassis was not changed) ... but others that seem to think a circle is a square may not agree .

Pete

 

No it is not the original car, but it is the same car. This is how we end up with 2 or 3 claims for a single car.

But as you pointed out this car has the rebuilt chassis in it ... thus this car wins.

Pete
ps: The only way to find a completely original car is to invent time travel

 

Another example....

The Bugatti Type 57SC Atlantic belonging to Dr. Peter Wiliamson is the original chassis #57374 and it's the first of the three produced Atlantics, and the car was originally painted in a light blue metallic!
When the car was new and delivered to it's first owner it was an S model not an SC model, and thus had no supercharger! This was added by the factory later! Later again when the car (Now sporting a tomato red color)was owned by Robert Oliver in the fifties Oliver wanted some changes made to the body of the car, so he had the car shipped to Europe, and had a recondition made at the Factory in Molsheim, France. After this the car was transported to Ghia in Italy who made the rear-windows larger and made some cut-outs in the rear fender skirts and mounted new bumpers on the car, and also some high mounted new tail lights plus other changes! A new cotal electric gearbox was added by Hauswald in Paris! Arround 1970 Oliver died, and his car was auctioned in 1971, and bought by Dr. Peter Williamson who is the present owner of the car. Williamson had the bumpers removed and the car painted a light Bugatti blue and removed the wheel disc covers!
Recently the complete car underwent a major restoration and was rebuild back, as close to the original specifications as humanly possible using new and old parts, and even some new non original parts were produced to get the car look as it had done from the birth!
Now.....is this car still the same or is it merely a well built replica??? Of course it is not a replica, as it still keeps the original chassis and it's history, even if the car had been laying in a barn for decades, this would still be a part of the history of the car!!! In fact the car was allways the same Bugatti Atlantic and Further it won the best of show trophy at Pebble in 2003....I guess this would not have happened to a Replica!!! The car is today referred to as an Original Bugatti Type 57SC Atlantic.....even if it was born as a Type 57S, and even if the restoration was not done by Bugatti, and even if some of the parts were not originally on this car, and even if some parts are not original Bugatti spares!!!

Best

Carsten

 

Carsten:

The modifications to the read window were done by Carrozerria Rocco Motto in Turin, and not by Ghia. Motto was a sub-contractor, and was actually the person who did the coachwork on all the Siata 208 spiders, even though they have Vignale badges! He also did many Cisitalias, including all of the D-46s.

I'm not concerned with fairly minor modifications. The vast majority of this Bugatti is original. The blower was a factory addition, and most of the modifications were done 50 years ago.

The problem is with cars that have chassis that are half original and half modern, and most of the body is a modern recreation of the original.

As to 846; the motor (or at least parts of it) did run at LeMans, but we are not certain if it ran in chassis 846 at LeMans or at any other race. Ferrari often swapped motors from car to car during the racing season.

 

The vast percentage of the car is original, and the repair work was done by Ferrari. It is a real car

In the case of 846, we are not certain what percentage of the car is original and what part is recreated...and some of it wasn't done by Ferrari...a totally different story.

 

What seems to be overlooked is the fact that the F1 car of DB has a continuous history and Mr. Glickenhaus's has not. Therefore there's no doubt about the provenance of DB's car and it seems to me there's a slight doubt about 0846's.. ;-)

Ofcourse in due time DB's car will be nothing like when it was first raced. Maybe in the future Ferrari or any other shop no longer will be able to maintain the car and it's destined to end up dormant in a museum, slowly deteriorating further. A sad vision but possible. But it still will be the same car because it's history is known, no matter what happened with the car (i.e. in general: maintainance, rebodies, engine swaps etc. etc.)

Ciao, Peter

 

Details on the restoration of the Bugatti Type 57 SC Atlantic #57374 of Peter Williamson, to see here : http://www.bugatti.co.uk/trust/nl16-9.html

and here too :

http://www.chamberlainwoodworking.com/article_atlantic_bugatti.htm
http://www.highmountainclassics.com
http://www.chamberlainwoodworking.com/index.html

 

DB
I have seen Judges ask a Turbo Ferrari F1 car to start up at a concours to make sure it could start.
I have heard one of the Judges upon hearing the lumpy un warmed up idle proclaim: "That doesn't sound like it's running on all 12 cyl."

I have had a Judge complain that my MK-IV, that I had driven over 100 miles to a Show that: "There's dirt under the Head Light covers." In fairness another pointed out: "That dirt is from Le Mans."

It sounds like you enjoy yourself. That's all that matters. The rest is interesting but compared to enjoying yourself it does not matter.
Best

 

Alex, I'd like to buy a clue for $1000....

Yeah, and Jim, DB, do they have original air in tires?

Last time I had judges do that, I put on my Ferrari hat (was a PCA Parade).

Trailered cars (except F-1) suck.

 

Sorry my mistake.....the redesign for the changes to the rear window and the other body-mods was made by GHIA, not performed by Ghia!

@Christophe, thanks for adding the links, of course I had allready seen them!!!

Best

Carsten

 

Well not really. I just thought that I'd combine two controversial topics and create the mother of all flame wars!

 

Those particular SBV's are in the Minority. As they're the 14 supporting Kerry.

The other 250+ SWV's who are against Kerry have actually seen 0846 and all the documents and are for 0846.

 

Are you talking about J.C.´s car?
The judges don´t know everything... look at my post regarding rthe istoric grand Prix in Monaco...
A Ferrari F1- turbo never had more than 6 cylinders

Its the enjoyment that everyone has what matters, the public who are able to watch these beautiful cars, get close to them end sometimes even sit in them... and us who have the privilege to drive and maintain them. My best regards and keep enjoying yourself also.

DB

 

Reports are pouring in. Latest rumor has Kerry saving the life of driver of 0846 at LeMans in 1967 by pulling him from the flaming wreckage while GWB relaxes on the French Riviera. Swiftees are claiming that the fire was actually OUT by the time Kerry arrived on the scene, and the driver was merely taking a well deserved snooze after many hours of racing. More details to follow.

 

I've tried to keep out of this argument, but what the hell - here goes;

IMO a car is built up of 3 main components -
the chassis
the body
the engine
Can we agree on this?

I understand that 0846 has the following;
a chassis that might be 0846 but without the chassis plate - but let's give it the benefit of the doubt
a body that is NOT original, or even made by Ferrari
an engine that was not originally in 0846, and was never part of 0846
Correct so far?

By my reckoning that makes;
chassis OK = 33% - (being generous)
body = 0%
engine = 0%
TOTAL = 33% - (being generous)

Less than half doesn't make it 0846, but it is a Ferrari P4 - just not 0846.

Anybody want to lend me $1million and I'll give you 33% back and tell you that it's the real deal?

Agreed, as long as you have a continous history to prove that these modifications were made. But if years later you combine chassis A, with body by B and engine from C then it is not the same car. If at a much later date you combine chassis A, body A and engine A then it's the same car. That's why people go to great lengths to put the original engine and chassis together in GTOs and 250TRs etc.

Just my opinion - but, Jim, if you want to send me a copy of your booklet I will gladly consider the evidence.

 

The problem with this discussion is, too much opinion, too little fact. But that's just my opinion.