The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

You're quite sure about this GTE. Do you have some concluding information others have not? Actually seen the car? Just curious.

Ciao, Peter

 

I 'm happy to see that we still have people understanding the chassis situation.
To my opinion, Napolis's chassis is 0846 and he gave us enough info/pictures about that.
Than Man deserve credit for his achievement
Roland
F40LM

 

Amen, Roland. I think it's disgraceful the way some have acted. Not once has 'Napolis refused access to what he is able to share. That's testimony to his Character. He offers ample proof of the Chassis' authenticity, as have the hand's-on experts.

Come. Look. See. Photograph. Examine. Shut up.

 

No, not at all. I am basing my opinion on the info which is obtainable from following this discussion. I trust mr G in his remark that about 90% of the chassis is 0846. If this is true (and I have no reason to doubt it) than I believe the fact the car was re-bodied doesn't affect it's identity.

If the info turns out to be wrong, then I am wrong.

 

Yeah! And we need a new thread about that redhead/brunette thing...

 

You have that redhead's phone number Wax?

I'll bet the sunrise over the Sound looks pretty spectacular in the morning.....over hot coffee......

Welcome home, safe and sound, Mr. G.

Well bought at the auction, BTW, makes Jim Spiro look like a spendthrift...LOL!

nattering nabobs...that's one of my favorites......

 

She's in the Bikini Thread, Lee....

 

I second this....Jim really deserves credits for all the hard and well performed work done to preserve this piece of automotive history! Why don't we all just enjoy that the World has enthusiasts like Jim with enough money, patience and will to buy, use and preserve these treasures, and not least to share these works of art with all the rest of us?!?!

Best regards

Carsten

 

If the Mona Lisa frame was the part that everyone felt was important then yes. But of course its not. In this case the picture is the important part. To reverse it, lets say someone has the origianl frame and someone else has the painting. Should we say since the original painting is not in the original frame it is no longer the Mona Lisa? A better analogy would be a firearm

In the world of firearms the reciever is the gun. Thats the law. The receiver is the part of the gun the manufaacture decides to stamp the serial number on and is accepted as the gun. All other parts do not matter. Not the trigger (although it may be on some guns that the trigger IS in the receiver), not the barrel, not the handguard, just the reciever. If you switch the barrel and give the barrel to a friend and he makes another gun, its a different gun. Whoever has the receiver with the serial number owns that particular gun.

The chassis of a car is like the receiver. Thats what (at least in the US and in the Ferrari community) is considered to who has ownership of the car.

To go back to the Mona Lisa, the picture would be the chassis or reciever and would be the most important part. The frame around the picture would be the body of the car. Nice if the frame was original but most people woudn't really care.

Ed

 

You've got it bass-ackwards.

The Mona Lisa is the chassis.

 

#292 Yesterday, 11:58 PM
PSk
F1 Rookie
Not Subscribed Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sydney Australia
Full Name: Pete
Posts: 3,847

Summary

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Okay I think it is time for a summary post, ie: Where are we at.

1. We know that Ferrari converted #0846 into a P4 ... hence the P3/4 term.
2. We know that Chris Amon tried to destroy the car at Le Mans
3. We know from several sources (refer Wayne Ausbrook's and also Jim's posts) that the car was not destroyed.
4. We believe that Piper purchases many parts that once made up either 100% or some lesser value of #0846.
5. We know that Piper created 3 cars: 0900 and 0900a as P4's and this car that he refers to as #00003 (I guess we can assume that he refers to 0900 as #00001 and 0900a as #00003).
6. We know that Jim bought #00003 as a fibreglass bodied P3 (I think P3?) spyder. With no chassis number.
7. We know that Jim also bought from Piper a NOS alloy P4 coupe body.
8. We know also that #00003 was powered by a 3 litre v12 engine with a block matching that of a P4 (ie. curved rib).
9. We know that Jim has corrected (right term?) the engine size to 4 litres without having to change any castings.
10. We know that the gearbox is a genuine P3 gearbox that was once fitted to #0846.
11. We know that parts of the engine and the gearbox have run at Le Mans due to scrutineering stamps.
12. We know that #0846's chassis was repaired after it's Targa Floria accident and that the person who made the repair did atleast once (as heard by witnesses) indicate to Jim that his chassis has a similar repair.
13. We know that Jim's chassis is a P3/4 chassis and not a P4 chassis like 0900 and 0900a (and #0856).
14. We know that Jim has had the uprights recast by Ferrari after a request indicating that he was restoring #0846.
15. We know that Jim has also had the wheels recast ... to Pipers modified version (ie. wider).
16. We know that Jim found repairs to one of the fibre glass doors that look 'similar' to photos of the Targa Floria accident.
17. We know that Jim's chassis has further repairs that would possibly correspond to the majority of the fire damage #0846 suffered at Le Mans.
18. We know the tyre changing hammer head is missing at Le Mans ...

What is missing?
1. Who made the chassis for #00003?. I am under the impression that it was the same company that Ferrari used to make their chassis'.
2. Why in this process did they not simply repair #0846 and sell it to Piper?
3. How come Piper did not notice that it was a P3/4 chassis during his ownership of #00003?

Pete

Pete
Very good indeed. A few minor points.

1. Ferrari S.P.A. converted 1 P3 chassis 0846 as per the technical data sheets to enable it to accept a 237 type engine by modifying the rear tubular section of the chassis (Front engine mounts) and shortening it's wheelbase by 12mm from 2412mm to 2400mm by modifying it's rear engine mounts.

5. 0900 is a completed car with a chassis built to "original 1967 P4 Chassis Blueprints given to me (David Piper) by Enzo Ferrari.
"0900a" is as far as I know a far from completed car the chassis of which is identical to the chassis of 0900.
David referred to my chassis os "0003" in ALL Documents including the bill of sale INVOICE Nr. BD/cm-20000.10.1 that is "duly stamped and notarized, with the Apostille according to the Hague Convention, as required" (Davids Lawyer Mr. Baudouin DUNAND) and begins with as do all documents provided by David and his Lawyer with
"1967 FERRARI 330 P4"
David affixed a chassis plate 0003 to my chassis and described it once again in each and every document provided by him and his lawyer under the heading "1967 Ferrari 330 P4" as having been built to "original 1967 chassis drawings" as "0003" .

6. Fiberglass P3 Spyder tail. Fiberglass P4 nose. Fiberglass P4 doors. ( I also bought from David alloy P3 doors) Alloy Spyder center section which we later added an alloy P4 roof to (not NOS) .
All of the Alloy center section and all riveted Alloy Body panels that were on the car when I bought from David are still on the car.

8. 0003. Doug may say "Poppycock" but Ferrari S.P.A. Historical Archives clearly state that the 1967 246 F1 Block is derived from the 237 P4 Block and my engine has the correct P4 curved casting rib and not the 1967 F1 straight casting rib. (The right side casting rib on 0856 is curved as well as those who were at Quail when my car was parked directly next to 0856 could clearly see). BOTH of the heads on my engine have 1967 Le Mans Scrutinizing Stamps.

------

1. 0003

2. I believe that unbeknownst to David they did.

3. 0003

I remain, Faithfully Yours, the Tosser who after driving his Le Mans MK-IV 300 miles to Vermont turned around, encountered a snow storm, but pressed on regardless.

Best
Jim

 

Pete and Jim,

Post 297 is the first post that really makes me question things. If Mr. Massini saw a car identified as 0846 at a company owned by Mr. Piper then surely Mr. Piper was aware that he had 0846 in his possession. If this is true, I find it difficult to believe that Mr. Piper would knowingly sell a genuine item as a replica.

If on the other hand if Mr. Massini's statement is incorrect, a relatively important confirmation is lost.

I may be missing something on this point, can you clarify?

Thanks,

Art S.

 

Rabble Mob Member #0901 reporting for duty........Sir!

We have Members #0903 thru #0911 standing by........

Enzo gave us these numbers from the street car assembly line, to avoid confusion, and forwards his regards.

He'll deal with Piper when he sees him.....

 

Good point!! - But what if you haven't got the original, undisputed Mona Lisa -
(It doesn't have a chassis number - therefore it can always be disputed)

I refer to my previous post - "The big problem here is that there are massive differences of opinion about how much of a car needs to be original for it to be recognised as a specific vehicle. Some are saying that "If part of the original chassis exists, then the whole car can be 0846" - others, like myself, " a substantial part of the car must be original for it to be 0846". There is no agreement, therefore the discussion will continue for a long time with no resolve.

But, thanks to FChat and Jim's postings we know how this car was constructed, and what from. Those that are really interested (either now or in the future) will know how this car was constructed, and what from. They will form their own opinions.

In the end, my (even our) OPINION makes little difference. Whatever we believe will be true for each of us."

I really don't think I have much more to add. Let's agree to differ - for now.

 

Firstly, I second, third and whatever else all those who have thanked Jim for what he has shared with us over the last couple of years - I congratulate him on having a beautiful car - and I thank everyone else who has contributed to the debate, because, although I don't agree with everything said, it has made everyone think hard and brought a lot of original thought, historical evidence, and interesting pictures onto this forum.

Didn't mean it to sound so pompous - sorry - but it's been great.

Now, as to THAT car...............

The original P3 and P4 bodies were made outside of Ferrari's factory by Piero Drogo's bodyshop; Drogo is dead; Allegretti was an employee or whatever of Drogo; Allegretti had and has his own carrozzeria bodyshop using the traditional Italian way of forming alloy body sections by hammering rather than wheeling; 'Old Man' Allegretti made Jim's alloy body = that makes it as near original as a non-1967 body can be.

Jim's engine and gearbox were made in the Ferrari factory in 1966/67; they are indistinguishable from the engine in 0856 and the P3 gearbox shown in the P3 prototype in early 1966 = unless someone can produce the official Ferrari serial number records of exactly which engine and gearbox was in each and every P3, P4 and F1 Ferrari during 1966 & 1967, they are as good as they can be in an old racing car.

The chassis frame IS the number; Jim's has the unique engine bay changes for a P3 to be updated to a P4 as 0846 was = there ain't no other chassis ever going to be found that'll stop it being 0846,.

And as for the configuration and historical correctness of the body style: OTTOMH 0844 has been rebodied several times (from P3 to P3/4 to Can-Am and back to P3/4) and the current one is not the one it had in 1967; 0848 (Filipinetti car) should still be original, ie as converted from P3 to P3/4, so on its second body; 0850 (the yellow one) has been crashed and rebodied, apart from restoration; 0854 was always a closed car until Piper took the roof off and later gave it a GRP body, and when last seen it had an open body of a configuration it never wore between 1967 and 1970 (open, full windscreen, 'basket-handle' airfoil/rollover bar, hump over carbs, painted red/light blue); 0856 did only one of its Scuderia Ferrari races as a spyder but has been that ever since; 0858 was a works berlinetta and has had the Can-Am body since 1967, so is it original/modified/or what? and 0860 has a non-original spyder body and the 4200cc Can-Am engine.

So what?

Jim's is now the only P4-engined berlinetta around - all the more reason to thank him.


Paul M

 

OK...fair enough

 

Marcel and I have spoken several times about my car. I have shared all documentation and photo's I have with him. He inspected, and photographed my car extensively at Laguna last week. He also inspected 0856. He told me he will gather his thoughts but I think it's fair to say that upon seeing my car and inspecting it's chassis very carefully he was intrigued.

Best

 

Originally Posted by Wayne
One last addition. Mark Ketcham responds to the earlier message with an exact quote by Marcel Massini regarding what he saw in 1977:

"... I didn't take any pix back then. Unfortunately. I saw a more or
less complete chassis with an engine in it and the front body work.
Wheels were attached to car! I was shown the chassis number 0846 on
the frame, right rear part.
Paperwork: I was shown the customs carnet for 0846. A carnet is a document like a "bond" (my poor English, sorry). The doc allows you to transport a car from country A to country B, without paying taxes.
But you have to pay customs a deposit (based on value of car) to get a carnet.

Marcel Massini"


Something is still not kosher in Brooklyn. If the chassis Massini saw in 1977 still had the chassis number on it, what happened to that section of the chassis? Why in the world would it be removed? Seems to me more and more that perhaps Jim didn't get everything he thought he did.

 

"At the absotule least 80% probably as much as 95%."....just not the serial number plate? How can that be true?
If Piper had the real 0846 sitting in his shop (with number plate and documents), all the chassis repairs, etc that now "prove" Jim's car is real could have been faked-easy enough to use the real one as a pattern. Maybe someone had an attack of conscience and decided to sell it as a replica. Possible?

 

From all the information I have so far, it seems to me that if anything is wrong, it is Jim that got mislead as to what he got, rather than him trying to put a "fast one" over on others.

As to what is actually needed to constitute a particular car; that is another discussion.

 

why would you go through ALL the trouble to , fabricate, wreck and EXACTLY reweld a " fake" or " replica " 0846 chasis ( using the old one as a template), to such detail? UNLESS you were planning on purposefully selling it for $$$ to someone and PURPOSEFULLY misrepresent the car?????? why not make yet ANOTHER REPLICA chasis , with the p3/4 modifications to allow you more engine choices, since "you" ( Mr. Piper?) had so many engines laying around ? also someone mentioned that there were exact recast copies of these engines and trans bieng made. perhaps to make and sell a chasis to market ( as a replica) that would use these " correct" appearing/ performing engines????

man thats a lot of "??????". another point if " someone" made this chasis as a replica, and sold it as the real thing, surely some how , some way, SOMEBODY would find or figure out the " real" car exsisted. by this i mean, why would someone fake this chasis if THEY had the real one. once you have sold the fake , for $$$$ you can never sell or let it be known the " real deal" still exists. plus at this level, you would be sued, killed or dismembered for pissing someone off with that kind of money. WHY WOULD YOU FAKE SUCH A THING?

i believe Mr. G has what is left and can be called 0846. the burden of proof is on his side. those who can must " prove " otherwise, or grant the car its due status as 0846.

edit: once this is settled, will Ferrari " issue " a new chasis tag? do they ever do this? i know the generic tags are for sale, but this is an icon, not a beater. seems to me after all his patience and hard work putting up with most of us, he should get official recognition and a real 0846 chasis tag. just my opinion, the mere 308 guy that i am.

 

'Struth - "just replacing parts as required to keep the car in a good condition." Listen to yourself !!

If only it was !! The car hadn't existed for 30 odd years!! That's half the problem. If it had a continous history, and required a new part or two no one would argue. This is totally different than "just replacing parts as required to keep the car in a good condition."

 

Miltonian, your posting is one of the best in several days during the ongoing debate. I notice that nobody addressed your comments. Could it be that your posting caused fear in the hearts of the "believers"? Your question as to Ferrari's status of the original 0846 bears restating.

WHAT DOES THE FERRARI COMPANY HAVE IN THEIR RECORDS CONCERNING THE DISPOSAL OR RETENTION OF P4 #0846?

Surely they didn't just "give it away" to some 16 year old hot rodder who lived down the block. It was a state of the art race car at the time it was wrecked. According to the Ferrari records, WHERE DID IT GO???????

And as Miltonian indicates: What happens if tomorrow afternoon, I announce to the Ferrari world that I, HORSEFLY, have discovered the original 0846 chassis in a barn near Stuttgart, Arkansas; a known location of an SCCA track that featured many races throughout the 60s and 70s. Wouldn't that start the rumor mill turning at warp speed? And when I discover this original chassis, keep in mind that even though it is missing any serial number stamping, TRUST ME, IT'S THE REAL THING!!!

 

And if you had read more of this thread and the other #0846 threads ... you will have seen that I have stated over and over again that what is required to confirm Jim's chassis is #0846 is to complete the continuous history.

Even if a car sat in a warehouse and did not move for 30 odd years ... that is just part of the history.

History does not have to be competition or race history.

My Alfa Romeo for example, has spent the last 17 years in the process of a restoration. Most of it in my parents garage. Later moved to a Sydney garage and now into another. That is still part of my cars history.

By filling in the continuous history your comment:

Becomes false ... because of course it existed. This is not some sort of science fiction movie concept we are talking about, simply bits of metal.

Thus we will either find out for 100% that Ferrari cut it up into such small pieces that it could never be put back together again (think about that ... if they just told somebody to destroy it ... did it really get destroyed?, it may have been simply pushed into the back of their workshop and ignored for many years) OR that X happened to the car ...

We have proof to some degree that the car was seen in 1977 very nearly complete (refer 'Chassis #0846' thread) with the chassis tag still on it ... and on its wheels!.

Pete

 

Good points. My guess would be that their record keeping of race cars wasn't up to speed at that time. After all they didn't think the 156 Tipos were worth keeping and shredded them. So I'd be surprised if they had a written document showing it totaled, but the fact that it didn't race after Le Mans basically says for them it was totalled.

However the thing that is really interesting, if you want to go the route of what is Ferrari SpA's official opinion: FNA accepted 0846 as existing P4 belonging to Jim on the FNA's owners website. To me that means they accepted Jim's claim one way or another. So the whole dispute is a bit academic. If it is good enough for Ferrari, it should be good enough for the Ferrari community me thinks.