The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

What do you not understand?

 

Apperantly we're looking for forensic evidence now, in stead of getting it from the testimony of key witnesses.

 

I am not aware and I've looked into this, of ANY forensic investigation that could definitely prove whether or not a chassis was made in 1966 as opposed to made from tubing that was very similar to tubing that was made in 1966. Are you or is anyone?

 

I don't know. I suppose an expert should be able to establish the age of the used material. If the material is at least older than 1966 or even from 1966, than that would support your claim. If the same expert can conclude that the chassis is put together in 1966 or thereabouts (based upon examining the welding or something), than that would constitute waterproof evidence that this particular chassis is the real deal. I'm inclined to belief with today's science, something like that should be possible. If not, we have to rely on witness testimony, and I have no problem in doing so. Why would mr Sparling testify anything else than the truth as he knows it?

 

Well...In murder and rape cases nowadays...we all hear of DNA proofs.
I guess it would be a pretty simple thing to take a sample from #0844 or whatever comes from the same stock of tubes... and compare it to Glicks chassis. Sounds pretty simple to me.
Staff.

 

If the metallurgy does not fit you must aquit! Has anyone consulted a psychic detective yet?

It looked really good at Laguna, I just wish I had been around to see it on the track.

 

That would only proof that the chassis' of mr G's car is made of the same material as the material that was used to built the chassis of 0844. It wouldn't proof the identity of mr G's car. Therefor we need witnesses like mr Sparling.



I apologize of this pic has come up before, but can someone confirm the P4 in front is 0846? I can't make out the number, but it is a spyder.

edit: Nevermind, already got confirmation that is actually is 0846. Thinking of making a drawing of the car as it entered Le Mans.

 

I think Allegretti might have gotten the tubing from Gilco; now known as Trafiltubi...the company that made the Ferrari chassis from 1947 to circa 1958 (some Gilco chassis were their own designs; others were built by Gilco to the design of others).

Ferrari stopped his relationship with Gilco, but that doesn't mean other companies didn't get tubing from them.

They are the biggest producer of extruded tubing in Italy, and as far as I'm aware, the first company to make ovoid tubing anywhere.

IF the tubing is from Gilco, they would know the metal analysis....I would think the analysis would show different materials if a tube was done in 1966 than if done in 1996 or so....

 

Read what GTE wrote. He is correct.

"That would only proof that the chassis' of mr G's car is made of the same material as the material that was used to built the chassis of 0844. It wouldn't proof the identity of mr G's car."

 

I am talking about the tubes used to make #0844 #0846 #0848...whitch I beleive were made at the same time.
Staff.

 

I meant that there might be a way to tell which tubes, regardless of chassis number, might be old and which might be new....

 

Guys and girls,

As far as I am aware you cannot date steel. Remember steel is made out of material that is billions of years old ... all we do is mix it a little, melt it and form it ... we do NOT make it and it is not grown or born, etc.

Thus the only thing you would be able to confirm is that the physical dimensions of the tube are the same. That is useful, but that does not mean that somebody did not order exactly the same size and make a replica chassis.

Last time I was involved in engineering, most of the stock sizes were really old ... thus you can probably buy exactly the same tube today.


Regarding the reference to P5 ... please refer to the mountains of information on this site and the old Ferrari chat site, that was covered when my parents were still practising sex and I was not born

Try this post of Wax's, that should help with ancient material : P4 #0846 Archives

Pete

 

I'm pretty sure Jim already knows that. Apparently the welds are different ... probably better quality as Ferrari were always famous for crappy looking welds.

Pete

 

Sure, but since it is not grown on born, we have to do something to it in order to use it to built a chassis. So, can't it be established when this happened with this particular chassis? Perhaps with something like carbon-dating? They've done it on the shrowd or Turin, so surely they would do it on 0846!

 

This doesn't look well put together to you? Sheesh.

 

How close can carbon dating come? Unless science has perfected the process I thought carbon dating could only predict the age to within hundreds if not thousands of years.
I'm sure the car isn't THAT old.

Besides, which of the other P4 owners is going to let you cut a piece ( no matter how small )off of their car?

I think when this sags ends, the na-sayers will still be saying no. no matter kind of proof or documantation Jim has to offer.

But when it does happen, I will be reminded of a scene from The Matrix where Morphieus(Paul Skett) and Tank(Horsefly) are looking at the screen and Neo(0846) comes back to life, and Paul er Morphieus says, "He (it) is the ONE"

This is just my opinion of course.
Have a good day.

 

Not all steel has the exact same mineral content, so it might be remotely possible, based on analysis, to actually tell when the tubes themselves (not the welds) were made. For example, the metal used in Auto Union's cylinder heads is not the same as used in modern cylinder hads. The old stuff wouldn't even be good enough for lawn furniture today. I don't know how much formulas changed from the 60s thru the 90s..

 

No, I'm pretty sure the car is at least from the twentieth century.

None. In fact, a P4 owner has a serious interest in Mr G's car not being 0846, for when it is not, 0846 still isn't found (and probably won't be found) and that makes one P4 less in the world.

Sure. I don't think it is possible to convince every single person that cares enough to have an opinion. There'll always be those that question the evidence when the evidence points to the authenticity of mr G's car and there will always remain some questions. For instance, when the car turns out to be 0846, than it is pretty remarkable that mr Piper didn't know that.

Did Morpheus need much persuation to believe Neo was the one?
Perhaps mr Skett can be agent Smith

 

It may (and it's a long shot) be possible to perform a spectrographic analysis of the tubes and welds to determine whether the original portion of the frame material is new or of 1960s vintage. Spectrographic analysis can tell you the composition of a steel. While many older steel grades are still in use, methods for manufacturing them have changed completely since the 1960s although that may mean nothing. But if the "old portion" of the frame is made of an alloy that didn't exist in the 1960's (but rather a steel grade that existed in the 1970s in England ) you might know a little more.

No matter what you did, discovering the age of the steel and welding material used would not in and of itself be proof, but it would be an interesting exercise.

I really commend Jim for suffering through all of this.

 

I think you are right about Skett/Smith.

 

DNA TESTING CAN ONLY BE DONE ON CELLULAR TISSUE. NOT STEEL ALLOY PIPES.


CARBON DATING CANNOT BE DONE ON STEEL PIPES , SINCE THEY CAN ONLY GET THE DATING DOWN TO " CENTURIES" OF A TIMELINE BASED ON THE DECAY OF THE CARBON ATOMS, WHICH IS A KNOWN CONSTANT IN PHYSICS. YOU CANNOT SINGLE OUT A SPECIFIC DATE IE, 1966, OR 1866. CARBON DATING IS USED FOR REALLY OLD "ANCIENT" ITEMS. NOT CAR CHASIS TUBES.



NIETHER OF THESE CAN BE USED TO IDENTIFY A CARS CHASIS TUBES!

 

Indeed, and whether this is 0846 or not, it does provide us with some fascinating stuff, doesn't it? (and of course a stunningly looking car).

 

Ok ok, point taken!

 

Hi M,
I second you and Eric330 on this....and Jim certainly deserve credits for his incredible achievement, and for his patience and tolerance towards the solving of this mystery!!!

Best

Carsten

 

I thought that all of this stuff about the analysis of the tubing was a JOKE!

Even if were possible to perform a spectrographic analysis of the tubes and welds to determine what parts of the chassis is new and what part is 1960s vintage, this would NOT tell us if the old tubes were actually on 846 or not!