The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Dare I say the obvious: Because he knew that it contained nothing from 0846? (shock waves!!!!)

So Piper is paying good money to have new chassis' built for a high performance race car, and he doesn't mind if the chassis builder uses some leftover scraps of unknown quality from a wrecked car? There are guys right here in Arkansas that built dirt track chassis that are more reliable than that. They use new tubing. And their cars don't go 200 mph.

And this all assumes that some mysterious chassis maker just happened to have the remains of 0846 lying around. WOW! Those little elves in their hot air balloon really get around!

 

You know Arlie, when this saga is finally over, you are going to look like the part of a horse you handle flies around and around.

I'm not talking about his head either.

 

Horses aside, I'm sure we'll all be waiting "until the cows come home" before Ferrari ever officially acknowledges an unmarked, un-serial numbered, unverifiable chassis as being the car that raced at LeMans in 1967.
And if "forensic examination" becomes the NEW determining factor for the establishment of a car's authenticity, there won't be enough CANS in the country to package all the WORMS that this incident will create.

 

Lime Rock?


2 more days....

 

OK, then please explain why Piper, who was making "2nd series" P4s would have a P3/4 chassis, which has obvious differences?...or are you claiming Jim got a P4 "2nd series" chassis, and converted it to look like a previously damaged P3/4 chassis?...especially as he put a coupe rather than a "proper" spider body on it...that makes NO sense to me....

 

Don't ask me, go ask those chassis makers who you ASSUME had the wrecked chassis of 0846 laying around. And go ask Piper himself. The silence from him, and Ferrari itself, will no doubt continue forever. As I said before, you have a will-o-the-wisp. Forever unconfirmable. (On the other hand, with no confirmation, you may in reality have only 25 percent of an ACTUAL will-o-the-wisp)

This brings up a good question: Who WERE the people that made Piper's reproduction chassis? Where are they now? Could they hold the key to the mystery?

 

Arlie.
I think the name of the company was something like (and I may have this slightly wrong): Manicardi & Messuri (of Modena). They were Ferrari's sub-contract chassis fabricators in the mid '60's, and not only built #0900's repro chassis in the 70's, but most of the original P cars chassis ....

 

Maybe some of these vintage decals will also fit (or on other Ferrari's)
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OF COURSE I am assuming that the chassis makers had the wrecked chassis of 846; I'll grant you that...but Piper wound up with what is obviously a P3/4 rather than a P4 chassis, and used it in the complete car Jim bought.

Just where did this P3/4 chassis come from? Did it drop out of the sky into Piper's lap?

Please explain YOUR theory of how Piper got a P3/4 chassis that showed damage repairs.

There ultimately be no way to prove exactly what Piper had.....the chassis makers THEMSELVES might not even know.....but I don't know what it could be, EXCEPT for 846.

 

You are totally missing the point. Sure it is no fact that Mr G's chassis is 0846, but it sure is mighty likely that he has, for it is fact that Mr G's chassis is not built to P4 blueprints. It is obviously a modified P3 chassis.

Why wouldn't it be likely that mr Piper ordered the P4-chassis' of the second series to be built from the original P4-blueprints as authorized by mr Ferrari himself, that he got those chassis' delivered from whoever built them and that he didn't investigate what he actually got? Mr Piper has no reason whatsoever to assume he didn't get what he ordered, so why in he world would he investigate?

Please, stay in touch with the facts. Mr G's chassis is not built to P4-blueprints, it is a modified P3-chassis, fact is that mr G's chassis shows signs of damage repair. Mr Piper delivered this chassis to mr G as a second series P4. Fact is that that is not what mr Piper delivered. Fact is that mr Piper still claims that he did deliver a second series P4 (as taken from mr Sketts words on it), fact is that mr Piper is wrong when he claims that mr G's chassis is built to P4-blueprints. It is not.

It is also fact that only the particular history of 0846 (modification and damage-repair), fits the story of the chassis now in mr G's possesion.

This is not about little elves playing their tricks. This is about taking a look at the cold hard facts and decide on what is probable and what is not based upon these same facts.

 

I think the cows are already home: Ferrari North America lists 0846 as Jim's car on its owners' website. How much more official can it get?

I don't think I could take a Noble P4 replica and contact FNA and give them a "lost" s/n and accept me as the new owner. It ain't that easy.

 

Gee, someone else who looks at the evidence in a logical and rational manner. What a concept!

What else could it be but 846?

Sure, someone could have built up a P3/4 chassis that look damaged and foisted it on Piper, but the the possibility of that actually having happened are so remote that I consider that idea absurd.

Horsefly, please explain to all of us just where Piper did get that damaged P3/4 chassis?

 

And while you're at it Arlie why don't you explain why something that you said would never happen has ie: that after reviewing my application baised on Forensic Evidence New York State DMV has issued title and registration
documents for a 1967 Ferrari P4,chassis/vin# 0846, to me?

Andreas
The copyright holder of the web site you cited where the information you cited has been posted for the last several years is Ferrari S.P.A. not Ferrari NA.
Best

 

Well it looks like we can put this one to bed. Who better to pass judgment on authenticity than Ferrieri its self? They would have had to examined the car themselves, and if they OK'ed it, it doesn't really matter what anyone else say's. Be it self taught history buffs or writers who supposedly know it all.

And we all know what the saying is about opinions being related to body openings, but I think a pink slip in hand is worth more than all the opinions you can gather.

 

From a somewhat more authoritative source than FerrariChat (most of whose members can, at least, actually spell the word Ferrari):

"Ferrari did (as far as I know) produce a set of uprights (and no other parts to my knowledge) for this car.
ANY claim that this means that Ferrari agrees that this is the real 0846, or any statement along those lines, is incorrect.
Contrary to what has been written and claimed in several places, Ferrari S.p.A. and Ferrari NA have no position on this car. Period.
(And that includes any statement that the car is mentioned/pictured on an official Ferrari web site.)
If Jim wishes to have Ferrari ‘approve’ the car there is a well-defined procedure, which has been discussed with him.
He may or may not choose to do this -- I suspect not, based on his intended use, and that's his business.”

End of this particular discussion. Period.

 

Just can't face the facts, huh.
There will always be the ones who will not be convinced, guess thats where you come in.

 

Any comments on the theory that 0846 was buried along with Jimmy Hoffa under Giants Stadium?

 

Who cares what Ferrari says about the car, or even if the choose to say nothing at all.

Any automotive historian worth a grain of salt bases his beliefs on a logical and rational analysis of the EVIDENCE.

One more time...if the chassis didn't come from 846, where did Piper get a P3/4 chassis with evidence of crash damage?

 

Earth to Jim: DMV employees aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed. My '66 Corvette was listed with an incorrect VIN number for 18 years with the Arkansas DMV. When I was looking at the car before I bought it, in less than ONE minute after walking up to the car I looked at the VIN number on the car and compared it to the VIN on the title. ERROR. They were off by several numbers. Neither the owner or the DMV had ever caught the mistake. Even after I had the seller get a State Police verification of the VIN number, the chumps at the DMV still balked at changing the VIN on the title. Finally they accepted reality and corrected the title.
One time I went down to the DMV and ran the license plate number for a 1957 Chevy Bel Air convertible that I saw going down the road. The registration came back to a 1958 Chevrolet 210 model. The DMV wasn't exactly on top of that one either. The list can go on and on. A DMV's title and registration mean next to nothing. I know a guy that rebuilt several Corvettes that had rusted out frames. He swapped in good frames and restored the car. So THOSE cars are titled under their VIN numbers, but that reflects in no way the accuracy of the chassis itself.

Bottom line, most DMV's are run by little old ladies working for minimum wage as state employees. I could title a 72 Plymouth as 0846 if I wanted to.

 

I was walking on a remote Pacific island. I found the broken remains of parts from a 1930s vintage Lockeed Electra aircraft. Since it is of the same type as Amelia Earhart's aircraft, and located in the same area that she was lost in, then it MUST BE HER PLANE by your logic. But science doesn't work that way. Unless you have proof, you have speculation.

Some people DID find some scraps of a Lockeed Electra on a Pacific island a few years ago. But they never developed PROOF that they were from the same plane. Once again, forever a will-o-the-wisp.

 

Dear Horsefly:

I AM a scientist. I have a PhD in theoretical physics.

Have you ever heard of the word theorm? It is a CONCLUSION accepted by everyone in the field, until more evidence comes in to prove it incorrect. A theorm is NOT absolute fact.

Your statement:
"I was walking on a remote Pacific island. I found the broken remains of parts from a 1930s vintage Lockeed Electra aircraft. Since it is of the same type as Amelia Earhart's aircraft, and located in the same area that she was lost in, then it MUST BE HER PLANE by your logic." has NOTHING to do with this investigation. There were thousands of Lockeed Electras. There was only ONE Ferrari P3/4.

Why do you refuse to address the question "if it isn't 846, where did Piper get a P3/4 chassis that shows damage?"

 

What if there were only 3 Lockheed Electra aircraft made? And 2 others already existed?

Not to be funny but now the question would be, is it replica parts, or is it the real thing.

What if some of the people that worked on it said they saw some of there handywork (welds) they can identify on the remains. This makes for a slightly different scenario. And thats a closer analogy.

Regarding the DMV. Sadly, you are correct. My Corvette also had a messed up VIN. They changed an "S" to a 5. What a headache that was. They didn't want to change it back even though it was done WHILE I owned it. I even had older regi's to prove it.

Years ago car thieves would slightly change the VIN on the registration slip, sell the car and DNV would not catch that it was a stolen car (until maybe years later when it was too late to do anything except repo the car from the unsuspecting innocent owner).

Ed

 

He hid - or at least that's what I think he meant, unless he was referring to a maker of chocolate truffles*. LOL.

(*http://www.rocherusa.com/history.htm)

 

Er well, seeing as you ask, Stuart - actually No, I haven't. I presume you mean THEOREM ?
As in: An idea that has been demonstrated as true or is assumed to be so demonstrable.
Not quite the same thing (in this case) I don't think.

You know what I'm beginning to notice about most of the 'Pro-#0846' lobby ? They all seem to share a common inability to spell - and I'm beginning to wonder how many of these posters are actually one and the same person.

 

Actually Paul, most of us spell fairly well. I've noticed some who don't listen.
Must be all the <<arse-licking>> we F-chatters do?
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