Merged Threads: California Spyder Replicas

First of all, they describe it as a "365GT 2+2 Conversion." And yes, there is a picture, although it is very small on the website (I remember seeing it in the print edition, and it was clearly a 365GT 2+2).

They list the year as "1967" and from the picture you can tell it is red/tan.

The picture is from the front, so I couldn't tell if it had some 365 California elements or not.

 

I purchased 12313 CA Spyder recreation/rebody from Autosport Design this past spring. It's quite a car. It's a blast to drive since it has the 365GT 2+2 4.4 engine, 5 speed, IRS, 4 wheel disc brakes, hydraulic clutch and power steering as well as electronic distributors.

The body was done in aluminum by Allegretti in Italy (father and son coachbuilders who were responsible for the bodies of the Ferrari P2, P3 & P4, Maserati Birdcage and several restorations/recreations of the 250 GTO). The body is nearly perfect. The gearshift lever is perfectly placed, the hood just happens to be a tad long, maybe at the request of the original owner to facilitate servicing).

I chose it over a highly exact recreation because it's so much more fun to drive than one based on the older 250 series chassis and I have no intentions of trying to fool anyone into believing that it is an original. And since it's not an original, I'm free to replace things like fuel pumps and alternators with more reliable (and affordable) aftermarket parts. In fact, don't know why anyone would want to pay $1.5m+ for a real one, I know that I'd never have the stomach to drive such a valuable car on the road.

I'm not a Billionaire, but I truly love older Ferraris (I'm also restoring a Daytona "cut" spyder) and would highly recommend buying a "driver" over a show car any day. Would much rather drive them than clean and trailer them -- there's just nothing quite like blowing past daily commuters in a vintage Ferrari V12 at 6,000+ rpm in all of its glorious sound. The new ones (550/575) sound so tame in comparison, IMHO.

- mike

 

I have 365GT #13347. I think it would be a blast to have a custom body made for it.

It's funny, people go nuts when somebody "ruins" a classic Ferrari, but it is the Vignale, Drogo and Bertone one-offs that are the biggest collector cars now!

I guess, however, there's a big difference in being able to drop your car off at shop in Turin in 1967 vs. having the "Pimp my Ride" guys do it in Los Angeles, circa 2004!

I wouldn't know where to go. AND, it would probably cost so much that the transformation costs, plus what the stock 365 is worth combined would buy me a 275GTB! (OK, maybe a 365GTB...).

Anyway, I guess it's a lost art...

Regards,

Pen Pendleton

 

The replicas by Tempero are not very accurate. If you look at their web site, you'll see that the body (and grill) are way to wide. I talked with one of their sales guys about 2 years ago and the price "started" at $150,000. The cars are built in New Zealand and are of excellent quality (their jaguars are incredible), but at the time their independent sales rep wanted a deposit of $30,000 and was a little shady. I believe Tempero is now represented by a few reputable vintage car dealers.

I test drove a Precision Design car (maker of the fiberglass body and square tube chassis used in the Ferris Bueller movie) that had Ferrari 330 V12 freshly rebuilt by Bill Pound. It was nicely done, but again, the body wasn't accurate. It drove well enough, but I thought $130,000 was too much for a fiberglass body kit car with a Ferrari engine. I believe it was offered on ebay last year and sold for $110,000 or so.

I also talked with Mark Gerisch who is a well known coach builder in MN and who did an incredible job building a California SWB Spyder 8 years ago (http://www.vgdauto.com/calspyder.html). I talked briefly with him and he said it would be about $400,000 to do another one based on the amount of work he put into it. I believe he only did that one and said that his client would never sell it.

So, after three years of looking, I purchasing a CA SWB recreation based on a 365GT 2+2 S/N 12313 with an aluminum body done by Allegretti coach builders in Italy. It was built in the 80's when the Ferrari market was at its peak (see my post in http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30382&page=2). It's an extremely fast car and very fun to drive. It's not an original CA Spyder, but hey, who cares? I can drive it as often as I want and not worry that I'm risking a $1.5m+ car. No one bothers to ask if it's "real" because it is a real Ferrari. Only a serious Ferrari buff that saw the engine would know that it's not a 250 series car, but then they can appreciate the value of a car that can be driven instead of trailered.

Of course, I now have my eye on one of the two 275 NART Spyder recreations currently being offered. If I could only convince the wife that I need another one

- mike

 

mikegt - congrats on 12313. I would love to see more pictures - would you mind posting some?

 

It is a Ferrari. In fact its two Ferrari's because it started life as a 250 Boano but was then sent back to the factory to be rebodied as a Cal Spyder. All work done by Scaglietti apparantly. Coys had a signed affidavit to that fact. So I guess I would call it 100% Ferarri. I have seen this car several times when it was at Coys and it is stunning. Not sure that Argento is the original colour but i think its perfect for the car.

Darren.

 

I agree with MikeGT completely.

And I'd like to see some pictures (and more details) too.

 

MikeGT - congratulations on the Allegretti car. I have a folder set aside with the pictures of that car as I think like you do - I'd rather have a driver than trailer around a squillion dollar restoration. I saw it on the list at Autosport Design and although not in my budget then seemed like a heck of a deal for a vintage driver/looker and Allegretti is well regarded.

If you ever decide to replace it.....it isn't blue like my other cars but I would get over it!!!

Again congrats and let's see some pix (and the Daytona).

Cheers
Kevin

 

Exactly.

If you rebody a car now when it is already a classic car ... you destroy all its history. Rebodying the car now does nothing to it but makes it a replica ... yep it is still a Ferrari, but the rebodying it serious devalues it and also makes it less collectible.

In the end your call ... but like you said when cars were rebodied back in the old days, they were either:
1. Commissioned by Ferrari, or a major dealer (there were not many back then so that is almost as good as Ferrari commissioning it).
2. Car was pranged as a near new car and thus the original body was not historically worth anything.
3. The style house needed to experiment or make a show car ... and thus were not COPYING an 30 year old design.

If you cannot see the difference and why a modern rebody is just SAD, then there is no point continuing this discussion

In the end while it is your car and you can do what you like with it ... you will be reducing the stock of original 365 GT's for the rest of us to hopefully purchase and look after one day, whether Allegretti does the rebody or not. Again Allegretti did not make replicas in the old days, he made his OWN designs. If he makes a copy now it is no better than your LA shop doing the same thing, just different hammers.

Yep that sounds like a much better idea.

Pete's opinion
ps: I'm all for driving the cars too ... but changing the body does not change the way the car drives (unless you move engines back or something) ... so why rebody an OLD car.

Rebody a 360, 355 or 550, 575, 612 (yes that would have to be an improvement), Enzo or whatever modern Ferrari you like ... but come on guys leave the old ones alone.

 

I just want to point out that I am not against rebodying a car if the original body needs major repairs ... thus you have no choice but to remake/replicate the area that needs to be repaired. That to me would be a restoration of the body ... but to some that would be a partial rebody.

Thus if you bought a 365GT that had had its body removed and is now lost forever ... you would have to rebody it. Personally I would prefer that an exact replica of a 365GT body was created and installed on the chassis.

A good example of this is Jim's P3/4, #0846. This car has long lost its last official 'as raced by Ferrari' body and when Jim bought it it was wearing a fibre glass P3 replica body. Jim rebodied this car as a P4 Coupe.

It would be absolutely fantastic for Jim to be able to restore the car with the original body ... but that is impossible as it is long gone (er, unless somebody finds it ).

But buying a say 250GTE Ferrari and cutting the GTE body off and replacing with a California Spyder body TODAY is anti the vintage car movement, and all we are doing is destroying a genuine Ferrari made body, and also making a genuine car now a bits-a .

If you want the looks of a California ... make a 100% replica. Make your own chassis and preferrably power it with some other engine so the original old Ferrari engines and running gear can be left (and maintain a reasonable price) for enthusiasts that need to keep their Ferrari going.

Pete' opinion

 

Gentlemen, thanks for the discussion, it has been very informative.

 

Sir,

I know it's been a very long time, but if you are still active on this site could you further explain how you know the above vins you referenced to have been converted? I am trying to get a Ferrari 365 GT 2+2 registry going and would like to confirm this information you listed.
Thank you.
Stefano

 

Hi Stefano - I'm still here, but not nearly as active as I used to be - as of 14 months ago, my family is without any Ferraris for the first time since 1960 . . .

You are correct - my posts above re: fake 365 Californias were 15 years ago. I had notions back then of starting a 365GT 2+2 registry, but a 30 minute conversation w/ Kerry Chesbro, the creator of the 330GT Registry cured me of that. You had to be a real tech guy, at least back then, to create and maintain a site as sophisticated as his - and I am not that guy. You should talk to Kerry if you haven't already. I think I must have purged my files of what little I had collected on QMs when I moved to Santa Fe from DC 6+ years ago. Sorry!

For giggles, 0556(0446)MD and 11199 at the 2006 FCA National . . .
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Bryan,

thank you kindly for responding. I know it had been a while but the registry is becoming a bit of an obsession with me, so I am reaching out.

In my humble opinion or ownership...no matter whether its a current or a previous one, the experience results in a lifetime of happy memories!

I have reached out to Kerry and he has just responded with an in depth description of how he set his site up. I do intend to decipher his insights a bit later on today (as most of what he shared is a bit above me)!

I will keep your picture and add it to the other I have for your ex car (if I am not mistaken your car was sold in 2010 via Mike S. place). If you came across any old VINs or other 365 GT 2+2 please do not through it away...we want it to become a foundation for common discourse on this wonderful automobile! I will also add the referenced vins of the mods to the list.

The "registry" is already available in it's current form here on Ferrarichat (another thread, which if I the technical skills I could link, but can't seem to make it work.) Thus I have attached the most current version for you (bear in mind that at the moment it is just a list).

Lastly, feel free to share the word as much as you can with those you feel could add to it so we can make it truly a worthwhile document.

Sincerely,

Stefano
[email protected]
+1-972-449-9538

 

Brian,

I know this thread is a bit old, but I would like to better understand the background around the VIN 10431 conversion. Do you have any history as to the when, by whom and where the car is now? Do you have any pictures with the VIN tag?

Any help is appreciated. I am trying to reconcile some of your information with what I have captured so far on the registry.

Sincerely,

Stefano

 

In answer to the OP's original question, here are some more known 250 California replicas:

330 GT s/n 5447
330 GT s/n 5657
330 GT s/n 5807
330 GT s/n 6555
330 GT s/n 7157

250 GT s/n 1329GT
250 GT s/n 1443GT

250 GTE s/n 2437GT
250 GTE s/n 2527GT
250 GTE s/n 3671GT
250 GTE s/n 3749GT

I won't use the word 'rebody' as that implies that original chassis are used. And I'm sure that some of these replicas use very few pieces of original metal - perhaps even none at all.

-Ed

 

10431 was NEVER converted.
It was sold as a proper QM 17 August 2012 at Bonhams Quail. Dark blue at the time.

Originally 10431 was Verde Scuro 2.665.902 with Beige VM 3234.
It was repainted burgundy before delivery via Chinetti to the first owner Pinkerton in Chicago (Pinkerton Security and Detectives, Consulting & Investigations).

Marcel Massini

 

California Spyder by GTO Engineering



.

 

Lovely narration!

 

Sadly Boudewijn is no longer with us and so will not be able to help you. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

 

I saw 1241GT this year . Impressive. BaT sold at $799k

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1958-ferrari-250gt-pf-coupe-turned-lwb-cal-spider/

 

I'm wondering if anyone may know of Cal Spyder, or TDF, or even TR that was made from an alloy Boano donor? I'm trying to research the origins of some alloy Boano parts. My only hints are that it shared space with a SBC V8 powered Elena on the East Coast of the US. Another lead claims that it is now a TDF in England. Any leads?
Thanks, RF.

 

The actual making of a back to make aluminum panels, shaped and made to fi a custom tube frame would run well over 150k