Winter Project: Dry Sumping a WS 308

I have details from James Patterson of their kit and a modification developed by Bill Pound.

If anyone has anything they can add I'd appreciate. I'll provide details of the project as it moves along.

Philip

 

I'm also considering a dry sump for my '82 308GTBi as a solution to the track, but I've heard that a 328 oilpan has a better baffle system that will prevent my problem of losing oil pressure on the track going through a hard right-hand turn. Do you track your car also? Any thoughts?

If you recommend the dry sump, please tell me what it costs, how much work you anticipate, and where to get it.

Thanks!

 

Jeff
I use my car extensively on the track. Here's what I have learned over the past couple of years.

Running R compounds and stiffer bars and springs, you can get away with overfilling the sump as long as you vent the vapor separator to a catch tank. The 328 sump plate will help marginally. When you run slicks, all bets are off and you need to DS the car.

There are 3 DS "solutions".
First, a DS motor. The best. Others, all use an external belt which has some failure risk. Failure would likely be catastrophic. What follows is therefore not for the "faint of heart".

Second is to use the stock pump to scavenge and add an external single pressure stage. I have the pump spec but you'll got to do a fair amount of fab to put it on. Also, in the original design (Bill Pound's) you'll lose the AC. Advantage, it can all be taken off (or put on) in about 4 hours with little to no lasting impact. Bill ran a couple of cars like this without incident. He has some parts if you can prize them out of him. (I can't).

Third, is a solution from James Patterson at Norwood. Uses stock pressure side and a 2 stage external scavenge pump. This is the way I am leaning. Requires 3 holes to be bored into the sump, fittings etc to be put in.

Cost will likely run $3K or so.
Philip

 

Philip,

As I don't run R compounds or stiffer bars and springs, your suggestion of overfilling the sump sounds best for me. What's involved with venting the vapor separator to a catch tank? Is that like a catch tank for the coolant overflow, or something else? Any suggestions on where to get one, and is it something a not-even-a-shadetree-mechanic like me can do? Thanks!

Jeff

 

Jeff
Most race shops sell them. Buy a vented one (most are).

I bolted mine to the firewall between the engine and trunk, then used a length of hose from the VS to the catch tank. You might route the trans vent to this too -- I find this vent will spray if the trans oil gets really hot.

I run the engine oil 1/2 to 3/4 inch over max at the track.
Philip

 

Will do - Thanks Philip!

 

Jeff,

Here is an old thread on this

http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/256120/303073.html

 

There's another solution -- a modified baffle. See Kermit's fix at
http://www.durable1.com/windage_trays.htm

 

Mike/Kermit
What range of conditions do you guys think the modified windage tray addresses and where and how has this been proven?

This is not meant as a slam. I recognize my needs are atypical, and I'd love to avoid the $3K expense, but I have 3 credible sources (Pound, Norwood/Patterson and QV London) telling me I have to go to a DS at the track it to run with springs above 400lb/25mm ARBs/slicks... you get the picture. If I am balls out on the carousel at Road America, I am going to get serious oil starvation without it (and a fair old sweat into the bargain [whether I have the DS or not!])
Philip

 

I would go with using the stock pump for pressure and a 2 stage external scavenge pump. It will be the safest and most effective conversion. I would add an oil level sensor to the tank an connect it to a big red light on the dash so you'll know if you are about to loss pressure. Good luck!

 

Phillip, I will try to answer your questions. While I have not taken a 308 set up like the one you describe to task as of yet, I have not had a single complaint. And I personally tested it as far as I could tke the car, so in that respect, I would not claim it is as good as a proper drysump. Or as costly either. Then there is the power loss to drive the extra pumps to consider.....
But after careful study of the matter, I am pleased withthe results of the design, as it addresses the issues, in a simple manner. The 1.375" by 5.875" end plate ad on keeps the oil from physically climbing the left side during a right hander, by covering a large hole. If it cant get up the side, it has to stay in the sump. The angle that the louvers that scrape the oil push the oil toward the right side, where the pickup is.
So perhaps it is a personal choice. In any case, one of my customers will be tracking a 308 with one by months end, and I'll be happy to pass along the results.
Kermit

 

Kermit
As I said, no slam intended (to you or Mike). The question is what's prudent ("best") for what type of usage? I am sure your product is thoughtfully conceived, well executed and works for a set of operating conditions. My requirements are getting more towards the end of the distribution curve. Here, I think only DS'ing will work.
Philip

 

Phillip,I didn't think for a minute that you were slamming. Although I am confidant in the tray, as I said, I do not have an example that would be comparable, so that I could state a different opinion based on cold, hard facts. If I were you, I would no doubt come to he same conclusion all things considered. I respect your position, as it is fact based, and until I can offer the same, (soon), you may very well be right in your judgement call.
Best of luck on the track!
Kermit

 

For those (few) of you with an interest in this, the project is begining to take shape. I have talked through both options with QV London (who have done several DS conversions), we are finalising the basic road map and will then be sourcing parts.

Interestingly, Mike @ QV became quite intrigued with the merits of a single stage external pressure pump approach (per Bill Pound). For all the situations I can envisage this will do the job well. Here's why:
- a stock 308 oil pump flows around 400 gallons/hr, or a gallon every ten seconds. With a (DS) tank, the oil capacity in the system is about 11 litres (equating to about 2.7 US gallons). So, if the (stock) pick up is deprived of oil, the pressure side will pump the tank dry in say 25 seconds.
- the most extreme continuous right hand turn I encounter (and in North America?) is the carousel at Road America, a wide radius 200 degree arc taken at 80 - 90 mph. With a length of approximately 0.45 miles from the Snap-On bridge to exit, at an average speed 80 mph, the carousel takes 20 seconds to complete.
- In this time, it'll pump 2 gallons from the tank and (assuming the scavenge is sucking nothing but air for the period) will be depositing an additional 2 gallons of oil into the (now wet!) sump. Obviously should the condition continue, at some point the the sump is so overfilled the scavenge pick up is covered in oil again.
- Outside of my immediate application, Bill indicates this is the way [some of] the NASCAR guys do it and their needs are likely to be pretty acute.
- Finally, given the oil is significantly aerated, some swirl/anti-aeration characteristics as found in the better oil tanks will be important.

Am I missing something?
I'll post a sketch in the next couple of days.
Philip

 

I must be mis-understanding where you're going but, but it sounds like you are talking about decreasing the flow rate of the pressure pump?? You can not decrease the flow rate of the pressure pump because that will drecrease oil presure, maybe I'm misunderstanding though.

On pumping the tank dry. A 2-stage pickup pump uses 2 separate pumps connected to 2 pickups. Normally there will be one mounted on each side of the oil pan, so no matter how long you spend in a corner of either direction one of the pickups is pumping the oil back to the tank and each of the 2 pumps about twice the rate of the pressure pump. That's why it's so good to have at the track, there is no why to oil starve the engine. I wouldn't deviate from tried and true.

 

Mark
You are mis-understanding me (and I clearly can't be explaining myself well). An external 2 stage scavenge works exactly as you describe. This is one option. An external single stage pressure is another. My math was just illustrating the validity of the alternative approach. It has been done successfully on both 308s and is used more broadly elsewhere.
Philip

 

Removing the pick up tube. Thanks to Verell for tool tip - the nuts are a challenge.
Philip
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Guys, over filling the sump leads to all sorts of problems, oil whipping into foam, loss of power from oil stacking up on the crank and then oil starvation. I agree more oil volume is needed ! Why not use an oil accumulator? Its used alot in the states when running a wet sump and offers saftey and economy at the same time. Most of you know about it, it is a canister with a floating sealed piston inside, air pressure on one side and oil from the pressure side on the other. Under normal full oil pressure the canister is full of oil compressing the air, but if the oil pressure drops for any reason, the air pressure pushes the piston and oil into the main galleries and overcomes momentary lapses of oil pickup due to high G's. It works! Dry sump is the best way, but this method offers the casual performance racer a saftey factor without braking the bank. Hope this offers something.

Gary

 

Hi Philip
Glad to see this project is up and running - I shall follow with great interest.

Just a point on your calculations - if the carousel is as you describe, I'm thinking it's going to take about 35-40 secs to complete.

If your scavenge pump(s) can't get a gallon back in the tank from the sump - whoops!


Best Regards
John

 

Philip
Yet another brilliant effort.Would tend to agree with Norwood for your specific 'edge of the envelope' application as you are at max g sustained then can suddenly go max g the other way on R compound and 400# springs.
Am following with great interest, as always, and would like to know what float levels you have found best with max g turns.
Again, brilliant.
best
Russ
OBTW - trying cams again this summer, now at Webcam this go around.

 

Phillip,

One of the first solutions - using the stock pump for scavenging, still seems to have the basic problem because the pick up may stay out of the oil long enough to deplete the tank. admittedly not likely, but possible even with elevated oil levels somehere in the sump.

The dual scavenge, (one on each end of the motor?) would seem able to solve this problem - no?

Would two scavenge pumps put less strain on the drive mechanism than the pressure pump? Less pressure on the expernal oli lines, less complexity by using the stock oil bypass.

How long would it take to install and test one of Kermit's windage tray improvements?

If I recall, in one of Bill Pounds articles, he tried an accumulator and it didn"t have enough capacity to get close to solving the oil starvation issue.

What do you think of the factory DS system?? I have heard that the partrs are NLA, (brutally expensive?).

chris

 

John, the situation you describe is salient for the 2nd of the 3 solutions I described earlier in the post. While the approach has merit, this is not what I have elected to do. We are using a 2-stage external scavenge, single stage external pressure. The scavenge sections pick up from each side of the pan (as with the original DS motor).

Next job is mount the modified oil pick up tube (which will be fed from the external pressure output) and to rough align the pump so we can drill the pan. I'll provide details & pics as progress is made.

Russ, John, thanks for the words of encouragement.
Philip

 

Chris
Others are more expert/experienced than me in the DS arena. However, based on what I know, I'd answer as follows:
Points 1, 2: agree. This is why we've adopted the approach we have.
Point 3: I don't know the loads involved. The pump we are using was used as the sole pump for a 308 race car in the UK (actually, it was the back up pump). In my case, we are going to use the stock pressure pump and PRV in addition to the external pump.
Point 4: You'd have to ask Kermit or one of the guys that has done it. I would be surprised if you can do this without taking a lot of the motor apart -- I don't believe the windage tray can be removed without pulling the trans.
Point 5: I believe the DS and WS blocks are different. You'd be better off buying a DS motor. I do know of one (it is in a race shop) but don't know condition. I am sure it'd be an expensive proposition and modifying the WS motor is (for me) a more affordable option.
HTH
Philip

 

Pressure in and two scavenge.
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So the "pressure in" goes to the stock pump?

Very clean and simple installation. Will you be using a custom oil-pan?