Austin has better entertainment, and .......stuff!!!!! The lakes are closer and nicer, as well........ What's the lyrics to that Ray Wylie Hubbard song, where he paraphrases the Texas cities, against each other? "Texas is a state of mind" IIRC Having lived in both, traffic is unreal, either place!!!
Well, I had a fun time in Dallas this weekend. Concidentally, I saw plenty of exotic cars in only 1 day there! As for the firm, I got along well with the lawyers, but am a little intimidated by their honesty about the 2400 hour annual billing requirement. I'm going to London next week for another interview to see what a different firm has to offer. We'll see.
Ryan, in a past life, I worked for one of what we used to call the "Big 8" firms. My quota was 1,800 hours at $100 an hour. $2,400 hours in a year cannot be done honestly. Run, don't walk, away from these people. Dale
My confusion is that these guys flat out say what they expect, and that there is plenty of work to do (the new associates already had buried desks), versus large corporate firms who SAY 1800-2000 a year requirement and really expect 22-2400 if you want to hit partner. Who do you trust?
Man, I should have been a lawyer or investment banker, like I planned. Seems like more my pace. My job bores me to death. 37.5 hours a week, but you could get everything done in 8 hours a week without calls, meetings, and waiting on others. Maybe many jobs are like that. I like working for myself, when I work on FC for 2 hours, then it is a solid 2 hours.
I am confused as to why 2400 billing hours can't be done for a year. Ryan, at the firm I am with, they except associates to bill 325-350 hours a month. The senior partners are billing 225-265 hours per month. You have to realize a billable hour and a hour of a day is not the same thing. For example: To set up a depo, we bill 1 full hour, when in all honesty, it takes 3-4 minutes for the secretary to do the job. Also after a depo, we bill 3 hours for a full depo summary, that is sent to the client. Usually, we can do that in the car in a dictaphone on the ride back to the office, maximum 25-30 minutes. So don't get scared of by the numbers. Associates at our firm work 10 hour days 5 days a week, and puts in about 3-5hours on Sat. Their starting salary is 128K, plus a 30K signing bonus. There have been many days where I work 8 hours a day, but have billed 16-17 hours. It is expected in this field, and our clients are well aware of it. Good luck with whatever you decide, but to make the big bucks, one can't expect to sit on their butt all the time. Just my .02
Ryalex, First, sorry I dint get a chance to meet you this weekend, but it looks like you had a chance to meet the "gang" here in Dallas. Second, I am not an attorney, I am an operational consultant (re: productivity guy). While the actual available work hours in a year are 2085.7, I cant remember a time when I only worked 40 hours in a week. I have to agree with LAfun2. It really shouldnt be all that hard. And having worked in the Big 6, now the final 4, I would rather work in afirm that was open and honest about expectations than lie to me from the start. Last, I might be in England next week. Dont know where and if I will have any free time but thought it might be nice to coordinate. In any case, good luck with the firm search. Nick
Rob, You need to do consulting then. The flexibility would be great for you and the work effort would keep you on your toes. Call me if you want to talk about the pros and cons. Nick
Ryan, Feel free to PM me and I can tell you what I know about the firms in Dallas. Dallas firms range all across the board as far as QoL, salary, hours, etc. As far as LAfun2's comments about billing hours and working minutes, that may be the culture on the West Coast, but that type of billing practice is not followed in Dallas, nor do I believe it would be tolerated by the market. While most firms bill in the 1/10ths of an hour format (which means if you work from 1 second to six minutes, you bill 1/10th hour) none of the firms that I am aware of in Dallas flat bill a client for more time than the work takes except under very special billing arrangements is certain fields of law. Maybe the smaller, more aggressive firms follow that practice, but the larger firms do not follow that practice to my knowledge. If a client found out that I billed them an hour of time to have my secretary spend 10 minutes setting up a depo, they would not remain my client for very long. So, in the Dallas market, if you want to bill an hour, you are pretty much working an hour. IMHO...Do NOT go to work at a firm that requires 2,400 hours a year. I probably know which firm you are talking about and, if so, I have friends who work there. QoL will be a huge issue. You will work hard no matter where you go, but to go to a firm that requires 400 hours more than the typical Dallas average of 2,000 is not worth the extra money. Simple economics....it is the law of diminishing returns. Also, do not forget that you will also have hundreds of hours in the office that are non-billable time, such as CLE time and firm meetings that are non-billable. So, look at the math. 2,400 hours plus let's assume 250 hours of non-billables (250 is non-billables is probably an average). That's 2,650 hours a year in the office. If you assume that you will have time to take 2 weeks of vacation a year (which you probably won't), that means you will spend at least 53 hours a week in the office. That is more than 10 hours a day if you want to have weekends free. Does not seem like that much, but after doing this for a few years, I can attest to the fact that my time outside of work is more valuable than the extra money I may make if I worked more billable hours. The reason that you will be getting paid the extra money to go to a firm that requires 2,400 hours is because you will be giving up so much of your time. From my point of view, I would rather have most weekends free to play golf, work around my house, and spend time with my wife. I would trade to a lesser paying legal job with less hours (or without billables altogether) just so that I can enjoy my time out of work, even if that meant that I could not afford an FCar or some other toy. Remember the old addage... on your death bed you will never say that you wish you had made more money.
Yes, Will, it's true....... AT LEAST 2400 hours of my UT career were spent floating on Lake Travis with a couple of topless dancers.........I think that time was 'billed' to my parents, IIRC........back when the "Hollow' was hetero........that's a long time back! My attorney bills me for time he spends in the bathroom, considering my case....I'll bet 2400 a year would be easy! He did give me a nice credit though, for those Penthouse Pet of the Year photos I sent him, posed on the Lambo Countach we had out, that night..... I think I'm 'up' on him, for now.
Holy smokes. Here's a question. If your firm's clients are well aware of and condone your billing practices, why not just charge them double the hourly rate and bill them for the actual hours you work? I'd wager to guess that *most* of your clients (or the persons paying their bills) would be appalled to read what you have written in this thread. I'm surprised that these practices do not raise any ethical concerns within your firm. It's this kind of bs that gives lawyers a bad reputation. For the rest of the readers of this board, I'd like them to know that to my knowledge, none of the reputable Texas firms operate this way. I've never heard of anything like this outside of crappy movies or novels about lawyers.
Actually, I'll second that....... My guy quotes 'estimates' based upon the situation. Divorce will run $XXX to $XXXXXX Assault of an officer $XXXXXXXX Traffic Offenses $XXXXX His instructions: "My job is a LOT easier when you only break ONE law at a time....."
That was the key to my point. Ryalex knows what kind of firm/field of law I am talking about, so I didn't need to make it clear. I do work in a very specialized field, and this type of work, the billing hours I mentioned is industry standard. Our clients (all large companies) not only tolerate the kind of billing we do, they are aware of what we do. In no way, are we lying to them and taking their money. There is industry wide billing sheet standards, that we follow. As far as billing 1-6 minute increments, I feel that is different based on different georgraphic areas and field of law. I am not sure how Dallas works, but I take your word for it. In our field, we bill in 12 minute increments. I.E. if a phone call takes 1 minute, we bill 12 minutes. If it takes 15 minutes, we bill to the next degree of 24 minutes. Remember these are all generalities. THere are many clients, where we are spending hours and hours and not billing a dime, because of the business we are given and the panels we are sitting on. You are absolutely right. I am making all this up by reading too much John Grisham novels. For you to question my ethics, without knowing me, is utterly baseless and uncalled for. Maybe I come of on the board as a womanizer and a person with no morals, but I assure you, I have plenty of ethics when it comes to the work field. To answer your question, the reason we don't bill them double is, in the field we work in, every body has the same hourly rate, and everyone bills the same way. That is the standard we go by. Maybe it makes you feel better thinking I live on a Hollywood set of crappy movies, so be it. Secondly, none of our clients would be appalled to read what I have written. I don't BS on the board, as many F chatters who know me, know. I tell it like it is. Our clients are happy to pay what we bill, because for the 4th time, that is the standard. THere is a revolving door in the industry we work in, as some lawyers have gone and worked in the companies we deal with. Everyone is aware of the practice. The reason the billing is done the way it is, is because it takes into account that different people and different cases require different amount of time given to it. Thus, contrary to your belief, the standards are in place, to curb misuse. Maybe that is difficult for you to see, but it is pretty clear to me. As far as you saying, posts like mine give lawyers a bad rap, I am not even going to touch that one. I have said my piece, without attacking you, however, it is obvious you can't do the same. If it makes you feel better thinking that I work at some sleazy, nonethical, immoral place, so be it. Not following you down the low road on this one. Good day.
Ryan, I apologize if you took my comments personally. Yes, I question the ethics of the practices described in your post. I was responding to what you wrote without any context or background information regarding the circumstances because you provided none. I have no knowledge of your particular circumstances. So if your circumstances justify the practice you describe, then my comments were misplaced and I apologize. But there was no indication in what you originally wrote that there was some sort of justification for conducting a law practice in this manner. That being said, now I'm genuinely curious about what circumstances would warrant such billing practices. I'd appreciate even a general description of the circumstances so that I can better understand. Again, sorry if I seemed like I was trying to get personal with you. I didn't intend for my post to come off that way, I was just really shocked to read what you wrote.
I don't know if I mentioned this, but I'm going to pass on the firm I just interviewed with there... I asked around and the word on the street wasn't positive about their QoL and their reputation.
Good for you. Anybody who lives by churn and burn gets toasted sooner or later. When are you going to London? Dale
Tomorrow! Tony and Graham have even organized a dinner on Tuesday night, that I can meet some of the London Fchat crew: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35623
Ryalex, I will be north of London and would like to meet up as well. I just dont knwo how difficult it will be from where I will be staying. I PM'd you my cell number. Nick
