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355 TOP PROBLEMS

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by jratcliff, Oct 11, 2004.

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  1. jratcliff

    jratcliff Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2004
    1,024
    Texas
    #1 jratcliff, Oct 11, 2004
    My 1995 355 has a problem with the top wanting to come down on top of the seat. I noticed the problem first when I was putting the top down and everything appear to work correctly accept I heard a crunch of plastic. I noticed that in the parts manual there is a plastic guide on both sides of top where it folds that appear to allow the top to guide past a plate on the back of the seat. Both of mine are broken, but it appears it wouldn't matter since when I tried it again the top tried to come down on top of the seat even though the seats had moved forward. By pushing to top back some it missed the back of the seat and continued until it was fully stowed. Any thoughts?
     
  2. delaney

    delaney Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2003
    721
    Montgomery TX
    Full Name:
    PETER DELANEY
    #2 delaney, Oct 11, 2004
    On my 96' Spider, when I unlatch the top, the windows and the seats move to a position where the top comes down OK .. i.e. the seats move forward enough so the tops does not hit them.

    I thinks there's a potentiometer on the seats that governs their movement when the top is lowered. Sounds like the pot. is bad, which is not an uncommon problem.


    Pete
     
  3. delaney

    delaney Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2003
    721
    Montgomery TX
    Full Name:
    PETER DELANEY
    #3 delaney, Oct 11, 2004
    Just re-read your post ... if the seats are coming forward, is there a chance something is jamming their full travel?


    Pete
     
  4. jratcliff

    jratcliff Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2004
    1,024
    Texas
    #4 jratcliff, Oct 11, 2004
     
  5. TheOriginalJimC!

    TheOriginalJimC! Guest

    #5 TheOriginalJimC!, Oct 11, 2004
    I just finished up the day showing the car at Washington Square in San Francisco on Sunday during the Columbus Day event. The top was up during the event. I hopped in to leave, started the car, popped the latch, hit the switch, and... The seats moved forward, the top moved back, and SNAP! The right side guide caught on the seat and snapped. The plastic part is inexpensive, but when the assembly dropped on the seat after the part snapped, it pouched a nice slot in the leather. Damn.

    After I got home, I cycled the top a few times and noticed that when you cycle it down, the top first goes back, then switches over to the other cylinders and drops down. The entire assembly kinda of sticks out a bit and can catch on the seat. But wait! If you do the same thing and gently push back on the assembly, it will rock backward and not hit the seat. It's almost like Ferrari expects gravity to pull the assembly down as it's folding. My top is a bit stiff, and maybe lubricating each joint a bit would help.

    This sounds exactly like what J-Rat was talking about. You know, I really hate these tops! I knew mine was working fine and then this! For what it's worth, the plastic part is available from your dealer for about $10. You can guess how much the leather panel is on the back of the seat.

    Does anyone have a real solution to this except moving the seats really far forward manually before ever cycling the top? And of course, pushing back on the assembly before it has time to catch.

    Here are a couple of photos. One is the of the entire driver's side plastic guide and the other is of the broken passenger's side guide.

    Sincerely,

    Mr. Disappointed.
     
  6. FL 355

    FL 355 Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2002
    1,665
    Ft Laud
    Full Name:
    Frank Lipinski
    #6 FL 355, Oct 12, 2004
    Interesting...my plastic guides have been beging to "bow out" and perhaps it's time to change them.

    I have a standing agreement with FChatter Richard Wallace...first guy to have a top problem is going to convert to manual top and do a complete write up here. Either de-gut or convert to 348 roof, which is manual.
     
  7. richard_wallace

    richard_wallace Formula 3

    Feb 6, 2004
    1,957
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Full Name:
    Richard Wallace
    #7 richard_wallace, Oct 12, 2004
    I am just waiting for mine to break again :) As Frank mentioned we will be moving to manual when such event happens again. I think I have had my top fixed 3 or 4 times in the past few years.

    But to answer this problem - believe it or not - I have had the same problem. I took off that little elbow piece/guide on the driver side.... It was hanging up on mine - the passenger side was not. The mechinism works fine without it - oddly enough.

    The process that I go through when I put my top down - which seems to help:

    1.) Open both doors
    2.) parking brake on
    3.) put both windows all the way down
    4.) move the seats up pretty much all the way - I do this with legs hanging out the door.
    5.) Unlatch the lock and activate the switch
    6.) Give the top a little helping hand until it is about halfway

    Over the years that has been the best method I have found to make sure everything goes down. I know that most of you will say that the windows and seats will go down/up automatically... I have had enough issues to justify me doing it for the controls - cause once one of these things malfunction - you can end up with a top not going up or down - and if you are on the road - this is not a good thing. So I do as much for the process as possible.

    I think Martin from Cavallino actually had the seats stick in the up position after putting the top down - making it where he couldn't drive it until it was fixed.. Point in case.

    I actually leave mine down 99% of the time - until winter - however every time I put it up or down - I just dare it not to work again. I think my total repair bill for the Top over the past few years has been around 3K...

    Rich
     
  8. jratcliff

    jratcliff Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2004
    1,024
    Texas
    #8 jratcliff, Oct 12, 2004
    Well TheOriginalJimC! has the exact same problem I have. I happen to be a manufacturing engineer that owns a machine shop and I have always enjoyed taking on challenges like this. I will do my best (when given enough time) to review the mechanism, diaganose the problem and come up with a solution. I'm sure I could go through many contortions and the top would function without catching on something, but I really don't consider this a solution. Many times I have found that 1 or 2 inferior parts are the cause to these problems. My time is very limited presently, but I will document what I find and make any solutions known when found.
     
  9. FL 355

    FL 355 Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2002
    1,665
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    Frank Lipinski
    #9 FL 355, Oct 12, 2004
    Just got back from Shelton and the little plastic handles are on FNA back order...

    Like Richard, I too open the windows and move the seats...just one less thing for the ECU to do... Only 1 failure in about 2+ years..

    Richard...the top goes down with the doors open? Thought they had to be closed unless using the bypass switch???
     
  10. TheOriginalJimC!

    TheOriginalJimC! Guest

    #10 TheOriginalJimC!, Oct 13, 2004
    John: I looked at some spiders today. All operated exactly as ours do. However, both of my seats do not move as far forward as the other cars I looked at. The extra clearance would keep me out of trouble. I'm confident both seat potentiometers are fine so will take a look at the top computer this weekend and see if the values shown will help me determine why both seats are not moving forward far enough. Stay tuned.
     
  11. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    20,037
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    #11 tbakowsky, Oct 13, 2004
    Maybe you guys can help me here as well.

    I have a 97 355 spider in the shop at the moment with top issues. The thing does not work at all..even with the emergency switch. I have checked the emergency switch itself and it appears to be working. The 2 fuses mounted near the of top motor are fine as well as the 2 relays. All other fuses in the car are fine aswell. I have checked all mirco switches as well and all appear to be normal. It seems to me the system is getting all the power and ground it should be in all the right places. The motor works(I jumped it manualy) and the fluid resivour is full. But it does not do a thing!!

    The windows drop when the latch is released as normal. Then when you push the top back a bit by hand it "beeps" as normal as well. The left side seat potentiometer is not working..but you should still be able to operate the roof with the emergency switch. I have all the wiring diagrams($$$) for the entire car incluing the roof.

    Have any of you ever heard of a roof module going south? I have called a few dealers and they have never sold one other then for water damage. I'm kinda stuck on this one. Have any of you run into a similar problem with any of your cars?
     
  12. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
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    Dave Helms
    #12 davehelms, Oct 14, 2004
    I have one in the shop that had so many failure codes in it that the emerg. sw would do nothing. Clearing these codes solved that problem, then each of the problems had to be addressed. If the top is operated once a week it seems to be quite reliable. This is one of the things I have my customers do even when the car is stored for the winter. This and always park the car with the top up so the top canvas dosnt shrink.
    I have found when there is seat interferance with the plastic piece, and the seats operate normally, the system needs to have a complete bleed procedure done. I have yet to find the source of air entering into the system but in time that will be found. With air in the system the top piviots down when the linkage clears the bell crank. With the air out, the hyd. cylinders actually pull the the linkage tight before it piviots down. This is usually predictable as the top can be seen to "fall down" for a short time before the interferance failure happens. The other thing that can be seen is the hyd. cylinders are slightly off (one from the other) from an even pull inwards. When the system is completely free of any air, the final flip forward towards the windshield, the top will "tap" the windshield frame and rebound upwards. Air in the system and it will smack the frame with some force. Starting to find the top mounting bolts (main mech.) behind the seats starting to loosen up and cause problems.
    Dave
     
  13. richard_wallace

    richard_wallace Formula 3

    Feb 6, 2004
    1,957
    Cincinnati, Ohio
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    Richard Wallace
    #13 richard_wallace, Oct 14, 2004
    Frank on my 95 - I can open the doors and it works fine... However during the past 2 years - I might have done something - unknown that makes it work with the doors open...
     
  14. Europeanroadandracing

    Europeanroadandracing South Carolina
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 19, 2003
    2,228
    Isle of Palms, SC
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    Karl Troy
    #14 Europeanroadandracing, Oct 14, 2004
    Not to make this a rule but I have fixed 4 355 spider tops in the last month and a half and they were all fixed by replacing the seat potentiometer(s).
    Have you checked the fluidlevel in the pump reservoir?

    Karl

    www.europeanroadandracing.com
     
  15. TheOriginalJimC!

    TheOriginalJimC! Guest

    #15 TheOriginalJimC!, Oct 14, 2004
    Dave:
    Very, very good information. In talking with a lot of folks, I had been convinced that a bleed procedure did not exist- other than using the emergency switch and allowing the pump to run a few seconds after full up or full down. Will you PM me the procedure, or share it with the group here? I would very much appreciate it.

    Karl:
    Both of my seats are not moving far enough forward. Using a fluke DVM (and on a seperate occation the Ferrari SDII) I verified a very clean sweep of the seat potentiometers from full forward to full back. When they fail, the don't sweep smoothly or they sweep smoothly for some portion of the travel and then simply stop sweeping even thought the seats are still moving.

    Today I was told that the SDII has a mode to allow the top computer to "re-learn" the seat positions. This is under the "cycle" screen, then tab down all the way to the bottom and follow the instructions. I plan on trying this over the weekend.

    Can anyone substatiate this claim?

    Thanks and Regards,
    JC
     
  16. andy355

    andy355 Karting

    Jul 18, 2004
    80
    UK
    #16 andy355, Oct 17, 2004
    different question:

    it says in the manual that you must use the tonneau cover when the hood is down. Any truth to this? i know it looks better but for short trips is very time consuming to attach.

    thanks in advance
     
  17. richard_wallace

    richard_wallace Formula 3

    Feb 6, 2004
    1,957
    Cincinnati, Ohio
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    Richard Wallace
    #17 richard_wallace, Oct 17, 2004
    The main reason for the cover - is to avoid having high winds - driving at speed buffet the top - which potentially cause issues.

    However I really don't see a problem for short trips - at normal speeds putting the cover on. I really never put my top up - except in winter for storage - but the once or twice per year I do put the cover on or off - it is not a 1 minute job - so I can understand the question.

    I don't think I would worry about short drives with it off.

    Rich
     
  18. jratcliff

    jratcliff Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2004
    1,024
    Texas
    #18 jratcliff, Oct 21, 2004
    Well I installed the plastic guides on the frame of the top this last weekend. I chose to try the top with no help and guess what? Yep, it work fine no problems. I still believe there is an underlying problem, so I will do some investigating this weekend.
     

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