IS THERE A DESIGN FLAW WITH 360's MANIFOLDS WITH PRE_CATS? | FerrariChat

IS THERE A DESIGN FLAW WITH 360's MANIFOLDS WITH PRE_CATS?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by 4i2fly, Oct 22, 2004.

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  1. 4i2fly

    4i2fly Formula 3

    Apr 16, 2004
    1,333
    SF, Bay Area
    If I understand it correctly starting late MY 2000 the 360Modenas exhaust manifold have been equipped with warm up-three way catalytic converters (precat). While they (precats) reduce flow/HP and require the 2ndary air pump and its related hardware adding the extra weight they are installed to reduce emissions during a warm up cycle and then they are useless until the next warm up cycle. But because they are equipped with catalytic material they are just as expensive as the car's main cats to replace. The OBD system checks emissions related sensors and monitors the health and operations of the main cats at all times by sampling the oxygen sensors and thermocouples. The thermocouples send information regarding the temperature of the cats and if the temperatures are exceeding the limit a "Slow Down" warning and CEL will get activated. If the driver ignores the warning sign for a legitimate “Slow Down” the car will be put in limp mode and will have no power to cool down the cats and hint the driver to take the car for service. Here's my question and hence the title of this post:

    If the precats are only a few inches away from the exhaust valves and are being exposed to more sever temperature coming from the cylinder heads why aren't there thermocouples to sample their temperature and send warning signal if temperatures are exceeding the limits of precats operations? Am I missing something? Has Ferrari goofed and exposed expensive components without protection and warning system in their system design?

    Your expert opinions are greatly appreciated, thanks.
     
  2. don_xvi

    don_xvi F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    2,934
    Outside Detroit
    Full Name:
    Don the 16th
    Aren't you also the one who's got a warranty problem with FNA at the moment? I see the reason for your question! While I wish I could help the little guy with an expensive issue...

    Sorry to say, but, as someone that worked on these very systems for another OEM until last year, Ferrari's design is "safe" and adequate. The same things that are going to cause the main cat to overheat are what will cause the lightoff cat to do the same. Most manufacturers don't even sense catalyst temperature, rather they identify misfire by watching variations in crankshaft speed. I'm not sure if Ferraris continued usage of thermocoupled cats is an alternate route to OBD compliance.

    I assume that in your case, the precats have melted and the dealership is telling you that something you've done with the car is responsible. What are they saying? You gotta help us if we're going to help you!
    As a side note, I'd bet dollars to donuts that even if that precat wasn't working you'd still pass your California emissions inspection and wouldn't get any check engine lights.
     
  3. 4i2fly

    4i2fly Formula 3

    Apr 16, 2004
    1,333
    SF, Bay Area
    There are some background posts earlier by me in the last couple of months with its most recent and relevant at:
    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29836

    But since Ferrari has changed their reason so many times without any scientific and/or reasonable explanation to the root cause there is an independent investigation. And I will be more than happy to disclose all of it when it becomes available. If I did something for the precats to meltdown I will gladly disclose the data and take the blame.

    While root cause/s are being investigated I am still wondering if the system was designed with no closed loop feedback to monitor and determine the operation of the precats.

    ” Sorry to say, but, as someone that worked on these very systems for another OEM until last year, Ferrari's design is "safe" and adequate. The same things that are going to cause the main cat to overheat are what will cause the lightoff cat to do the same. Most manufacturers don't even sense catalyst temperature, rather they identify misfire by watching variations in crankshaft speed. I'm not sure if Ferraris continued usage of thermocoupled cats is an alternate route to OBD compliance.”

    I am not sure what quite safe would mean..., but if there is data to show the precat temperatures are directly correlated with main cat and the signal from thermocouples can be extrapolated and read for the health and operation of precats and warning signals can be sent to OBD, I am not sure why there were no such warning signals. Something else may have failed to send warning signals in the system, I don’t know, but if the system is not designed to protect the precat and temperatures are not being monitored then there seems to be a design flaw.

    “As a side note, I'd bet dollars to donuts that even if that precat wasn't working you'd still pass your California emissions inspection and wouldn't get any check engine lights.”

    I wouldn’t take this bet since I know they are only good for the start up and warm up sequence and then they are don’t care. But they stay in the flow and get exposed to the exhaust at all times and materially they seem to be same as main cats.

    I am still not convinced there is not a flaw and how and why the precat temperatures are not monitored. Any suggestion and insight will be helpful.
     

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