Carrera GT values taking dump, owners bailing???

What in the world are you basing that statement on? Clearly Ferrari's engineering is world-class, just look at their domination of F1, and a lot of that filters to the road cars. What has Porsche done that makes you think their engineering is superior, I'd sure like to hear about it, because it must be some kind of secret racing series.

Gary

 

I hope there are more and more yellows and red CGTs . Great bargain in 2 years.

 

Whereas I have no idea about the value/depreciation of a CGT I think it is time someone cleared up the issue on the clutch. Now listen and learn:

The CGT clutch is a ceramic clutch for reasons of life. As stated before in this thread, the clutch has a small diameter (For street use) clutch of about 6.7 inches. (AP Products have a 3.75 inch carbon one for F1 cars!) The advantages of a small clutch diameter is a lower crank centerline height and lower polar moment of inertia in the clutch. All good things for a race car. The down side is that they do not last very long. A typical carbon clutch (racing) has a life of about 4000-5000 miles, which is what I get out of my Audi R8 LMP car that I raced at LeMans this year. The F1 boys get even less miles. Their clutches last maybe 500 miles or so. It is all based on size and Hp (Torque). For a street car they mileage is actually not much better. McLaren F1 clutches are usually good for 5-7k miles. My 360 F1, with an organic clutch has 14,000 miles on it and has 25% life left, so I would expect maybe 18,000 miles or so and then time for a new one. Compare all this with a Toyota Camry that may need a clutch at 70k, 80k, 100K?? Again size, hp and torque.
What Porsche did was to use a new technology, that has the potential of greater life for the clutch. The down side is that the "mu" (friction) characteristics of this new clutch are very different than organic or carbon clutches. Hence the different "take up" feel to the clutch, one that is maybe "too grabby" for "casual" street use. This is the price you pay-longer life but less "feel".
You could do an aftermarket clutch package--Just go to AP products, Sachs or Valeo and they will be happy to do a carbon or organic one for you to fit the CGT. But remember the downside. The carbon clutch will be very expensive and you will do a clutch change every 5k or so. And how expensive is that. What is the cost of bringing your CGT to the dealer and doing that? My guess is a lot of money. And how about an organic clutch? Cheap but I doubt it could take more than two or three hard burn outs before glazing over and needing to be replaced. Remember the size/hp/torque issue.
So Porsche said we can have a cheap(er) clutch and more maintainance or a more expensive clutch and less maintainance, but with an unusual feel to it. I am not sure if Porsche made the right or wrong choice. As always, the market will decide. (Sounds like maybe they have!)

Anyway, always remember that any engineering decision, even on an F1 car is constrained by cost/performance issues. You cannot ever maximize all of the variables-something always has to give.

 

lol, i got one, and yes the quality of everything they did makes everyone look well, inferior. Why do all these exotic car makers refuse to make their care reliable???? Just hire some japs or someone that desinged the NSX or maybe even MR2. This is the main reeason I'm hesitant on these car, I HATE stuff breaking and having to goto the dealer or being afraid of pussing it cause it'll crap out, but Ferrai seam to now be making strides...yay!!!

 

Yes, F1 is the Ferrari loyalists' Holy Grail! I'm not sure how much of Ferrari's F1 domination made it into my 360, though. If there's much more than the cheesy victory plaque on the dashboard, I'll be surprised. I'm not a racing buff so I'll leave it to others to fill us in on Porsche's racing record -- AFAIK, Porsche is no slouch either, especially in endurance racing.

I'm basing my comment on just about any objective comparison you'd care to make between, say a 360 and a 911TT for every day road use. Things like cost, durability, reliability, maintenance schedules, fuel efficiency, crash safety, and yes, even performance. All of these objective metrics point to Porsche's superior mastery of the engineering art.

You have to resort to subjective mumbo jumbo like mystique, heritage, exclusivity, cachet, soul, some vague affiliation with F1, etc. to make a case for Ferrari. Of course, I own one so I'll admit that I'm just as much a sucker for this stuff as the next guy!

 

nice points. although nowhere near comparable to a CGT/Enzo/Etc, my engine builder who started on my project in april this year with a finish time of "about a month or 2" has blown out (due to parameter changes) to still going now, 8 months later, also from a $3k budget to "somewhere in the region of $15k", for a FIAT.

anyhoo, the car is not yet finished, but he has warned me all along that DESPITE all the money i'm spending (comparably 5 times the purchase price of the vehicle itself) it's going to be something of a pig. he reckons i'll LOVE the rattle the engine makes at idle, the shake the car has taking off, and the fact that due to the hi-po ceramic-button clutch it's likely i'll have maybe 2mm of pedal travel from full-engagement, and either a lot of stalls at the lights or burnouts.

well, i've heard all this, and i'm still going ahead with the project, with the understanding that i'm not just gonna be able to leave the car with any old mate or valet attendant without an education course.

if you're told and acknowledge, you know. that's all there is to it.

(will let you's know about the car in "a month or two"

 

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of F1 gearbox, underbody diffusers, wind tunnel dvelopment, flat-plane crank (on the V-8s), e-diff (on the 430), and I'm sure there's many more but that's a start. Build quality, daily drivability and durability are arguably superior in the Porsche products, altho I have several buds who have had much more trouble with their 996-series Porsches than I with my 360, but from a pure engineering standpoint Ferrari is at least equal to Porsche, and arguably superior.

Gary

 

I assume you're trying to tie in F1 domination to our road-going Ferraris some how. It's interesting that you cite the gearbox. From what I've read, just about the only thing the F1 gearbox in a 360 has in common with an F1 race car's gearbox is the spelling. And if you're trying to use the F1 gearbox found in its road cars as an example of Ferrari's engineering brilliance, I rest my case.

 

While the gearbox is certainly different, the electro-hydraulic control mechanisms and the whole paddle-shift technology certainly enjoys spinoff benefits from F1. Why fight it so much? The facts are there for all to see, Ferrari engineering is equal to or superior to that of Porsche.

Gary

 

Got it. Thanks. Ferrari is wonderful.

 

I am surprised Alexpapas hasn't posted on this!

Here's a quote from one of his posts on the Rennlist:

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=167638

edit: kinda fubared that one. Go to the link and read the entire thread.

 

Don't get huffy. I keep waiting for you to list where Porsche is superior.

Gary

 

Gary, to us your sentence says, "The facts are there for all to see, Ferrari F1 engineering is equal to or superior to that of Porsche."

I'm sure if Porsche spent at least $600 million USD per year on an F1 program, and invested in an F1 program for 10 years straight, it would kick ass too.

Porsche builds road cars that go racing. Please compare a Ferrari product with a like Porsche product where the Porsche didn't out perform it, please...

Sunny

 

I thought we were talking about engineering excellence. To me engineering excellence goes beyond straight-line performance or even lap times, it is reflected in the driving experience, otherwise we'd all be driving Vettes or WRXs that represent the most performance for the dollar, but, I hope we agree, not engineering excellence. I've owned Porsches all my life and never have driven any Porsche that has near the level of sensory feedback and instantaneous response that my 360 gives. I drove a friend's GT3 last week and, while it is certainly in the same performance category as the 360 it is in no way as rewarding a car to drive, and he agreed! More bang for the buck, yes, superior experience, no way. And that is where I think you see Ferrari engineering at work...they can bring metal to life.

Gary

 

"They bring metal to life..." Bravo Gary!

Forza,


Cavallini

 

Great quote. I suspect that you will be reading this in a mag one day.

Dale

 

Thats not what I'm talking about. Engineering excellence and the driving/ownership experience are completely different things. I'm talking about engineering prowess in the areas of mechanical design, innovation, materials, craftsmanship, assembly, flexibility, and above all consistancy.

You challenge us (or 911) to compare a Ferrari to a regular road car that meets or exceeds it in the above areas and then expand your argument to include driving and ownership experience. Not so fast, mate.

Have you read the thread where someone wanted to use a Ferrari as a daily driver, 5 mile one way trip, every day? It was considered an absurd idea. Why is that? If they are so wonderful, why can't they perform this simple duty? Porsche can given its competition heritage and track record.

Since you want to compare driving and ownership experiences...

All the time I've spent around Ferrari's, becoming great friends with their owners, and getting the nitty gritty of the ownership experience, they project what they feel inside. And I have to tell you, its not as pleasant as it should be. Despite their faults, one of them recently said when pissed off/exhasporated with his car to the point of thinking (again) to get rid of it, he said he always turns back to stare at it whenever he parks it and he loves it.

Funny thing is, I do that with my car too and it has N E V E R disappointed me. Porsche's have that ability. Maybe that significance is lost on you but as an outsider, it isn't to me. Ferrari's are like an ex-girlfriend that you keep getting rid of but keep ending up with because of that love-hate relationship. Porsche's are the "keepers."

Sunny

 

I have tried Porsches (road cars) 4 times over the years, had love hate relationships with them all, none of them were "keepers" and none of them are missed. I still miss my first Ferrari (but I have to admit I still have one Porsche race car left in the garage).

 

Clearly you have not driven a GT3!
The fact that it can run on a track on par with a 360 that costs around TWICE as much, is simply astonsihing and you cannot help but give credit to the porsche engineers. As an engineer myself, i can't discredit ferrari, they engineered an incredible car. But, engineering is not as simple as just designing the best car and being done with it. The porsche engineers were able to create a very, very fast car, that's easy and relatively inexpensive to build and maintain. The ferrari engineers have build an equally fast car, but for some reason, be it their engineering inferiority or whatever, their design costs twice as much and only God knows how much more to maintain.

 

Was this addressed to me? I clearly stated I HAVE driven the GT3. It is certainly in the same class performance-wise as the 360 (although I didn't pay double the cost of the GT3, it was more like 50% more), but I stand by my statement that it is nowhere near as much sheer fun as the 360. My friend with the GT3 is now shopping for a 360. And I don't really mind having invested the extra 50% in the 360, since it holds its value so much better than Porsche. It's too early to tell what will happen to GT3 values, but the GT2 prices have taken an enormous tumble, hopefully the GT3 won't be as bad. As to operating costs, again too soon to tell, but my total costs at 5000 mi is $1000 for the 5k service. Next service is due at 15k, or 3 years.

Now my question is to you: Have you driven a 360?

Gary

 

Well, like I said, I owned Porsches for most of my adult life (first Porsche I bought was a '55 Continental Coupe in 1960, I owned 7 total over the years), and the best decision I ever made was to buy the 360. I wouldn't use either the GT3 or the 360 in the example you gave, a 5-mile drive to work, it's just not what these cars were built for, but both of them would do the job. I just can't imagine why anyone would use them that way.

Gary

 

Well... BMW, Lexus, heck I've even heard word the GM my be using the "F1" shifters aswell....So no real race pedagree is needed for this system.. It's really just a gimmick.

Porshe build quality is amazing...just look at the structure of a 911 and how it is put together..the suspention geometery is outstanding, and the fine use to aluminum is wonderful. Put a 360 up on the hoist beside the P-car and its lack of real quality shows up almost instantly. BUT..fire up the Ferrari and then fire up the P-car..and look me straight in the eye and tell me which one you would like to really own.

One thing you must realize when talking about the Porsche. They have been building the same car for over 40 years..it can only be a good car after all that time!! But it seems as soon as Porsche went to the liquid cooled engine is when the problems really started. The 993TT is possiably the best Porsche ever made. And it will SPANK almost any Ferrari in real world driving..and on the track

 

A real F1 gearbox is different than the "F1 inspired" slushboxes in the GMs, Lexus, etc; those are still slushboxes (w/ torque converters), with a button on the wheel / paddle to upshift downshift the clutchless automatic. The F1 systems used by BMW (SMG) and Ferrari are different assemblies. They're not one in the same; the gimmicky crap is that using the "F1 inspired" v. the F1 dervied technology of the BMW and Ferrari transmissions (sans torque converter).

Ferrari's are expensive for a number of reasons, but they're remained exclusive because the supply is artifically manipulated via capper production numbers. Porsche didn't follow this ethos, and has also expaneded its product line to include SUVs etc. Both car manufactures have taken different roads; Porsche is an independent Co., Ferrari is under the umbrella of FIAT SpA; where Porsche was once facing insolvency in the late 80s and early 90s, Ferrari was not. For that reason, Porsche adapted an economic model to retain its sovrenty.

The cars and their manufactures are very different, which explains the difference in the finished product.

That said, look closely and you'll see a lot of little things (even on a brand new ferrari) that are annoying; i.e., rubber grommits coming off, weather striping, etc. Porsches (on the whole) come much better assembled; again, mass production v. cottage manufacturing. Quid pro Quo.

In the real world, with a GT3, you get a car that's comprable to a 360 for less money and less hassle. With a GT2, you get a car that can take on Ferrari's entire line up, up to the Enzo, with only giving up to the Enzo on tracks that suit the power of the Enzo; on a tighter course, even the Enzo losses out to the GT2.

I think debates like this are assinine and tired, really tired.

There's nothing wrong with either car, it's simply enjoying what you like; taking the initiative to become combative and defensive regarding your car's superiority is telling of a latent sense of insecurity with your purchase - enjoy the car for you. (I ride Ducatis because they feel better to me, as a rider, than other bikes; that doesn't mean I wouldn't buy another brand if it fit me right, nor would I go around espousing the superiority of my bike v. any other. That's lame.)

Enjoy your cars, and leave the bickering to school girls.

PS : There is not other name, in road racing/endurance racing more prolific than Porsche. None. So, if you want to get nitty gritty, there's a fact to bite on. Frankly, tho, I like em both.

 

And in the real world, with a Corvette Z06 (new model), you get a car thats comparable to the GT3 (or even GT2) for less money and less hassle. And for less money than that, you can get an Evo or WRX STI...but we've been down that path. IT'S NOT ABOUT BANG FOR THE BUCK!! At least not for me.

And there is no race course anywhere where the GT2 would be faster than the Enzo with equal drivers, not one. The GT2 loses out to the GT3 on the tighter courses, and neither is a match for the Enzo.

Gary

 

So is it about being a snob ?

Since I was speculating , I'll let that rest until you get your enzo, and my GT2 arrives.